The Real Writing Process of Trip Galey

Tom: 00:00:00

Hello and welcome to The Real Writing Process, the show that finds

Tom: 00:00:03

out how authors do exactly what they do.

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I'm your host Tom Pepperdine and this month my guest is award

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winning author Trip Gailey.

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Trip is most well known for his award winning debut novel, A Market

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of Dreams and Destiny, which is a brilliant book all about a goblin

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market under Victorian London.

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It's called The Untermarkt.

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A magical place, a dangerous place, a place where Faustian pacts are made

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and indentured servitude awaits those who are reckless with their words.

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The story features a princess who sells her destiny, but

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how did she come to sell it?

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Who owns it now?

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Who wants it?

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And what deals may come from possessing such a powerful item?

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Yeah, it's as good as it sounds.

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It delivers on that premise.

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The characters are great, the world is great.

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And if you really like this sort of thing, Trip has also written a text

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based game set in the Untermarked, which is like a choose your own

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adventure book on your phone.

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It's amazing, brilliant, and insanely detailed.

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It's called Fairy's Bargain, The Price of Business, and it's

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available in the App Store now.

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He's also written some novellas that are available on his Patreon and if that

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wasn't enough, he's also co edited a collection of queer sci fi and fantasy

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short stories which is called I Want That Twink Obliterated, also available now.

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So he's a busy guy, a talented guy, a guy who writes and a guy with a process.

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And I'll chat to him straight after this jingle.

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And this month, I am here with Trip Gailey.

Tom: 00:01:29

Trip, hello.

Trip: 00:01:31

Hello.

Tom: 00:01:32

Thank you for being here.

Trip: 00:01:33

Thank you for having me.

Tom: 00:01:35

Always a pleasure.

Tom: 00:01:36

My first question as always, what are we drinking?

Trip: 00:01:39

I am currently drinking, uh, cider, which I usually drink,

Trip: 00:01:42

but not always or exclusively.

Trip: 00:01:43

Um, I've got a Henry Weston medium dry.

Tom: 00:01:47

Yes, the vintage and I love it.

Tom: 00:01:50

Um, as a West country boy, I'm always happy to drink cider.

Tom: 00:01:53

So I was very pleased to see this request come in.

Tom: 00:01:56

Um, so you are a regular cider drinker, but is it your writing drink?

Trip: 00:02:01

Don't tend to drink things when I'm writing.

Trip: 00:02:06

Um, unless I'm writing in a pub, which does happen.

Tom: 00:02:09

Okay.

Trip: 00:02:10

Actually.

Trip: 00:02:10

Okay.

Trip: 00:02:10

Yeah.

Trip: 00:02:11

No, I'm already going to contradict myself.

Trip: 00:02:13

Um, because I do write it in in my local pub with, um, fair regularity.

Trip: 00:02:17

But as a default, I don't, I don't have a default writing drink.

Trip: 00:02:22

I'm also the sort of person where I'm a very much a vibes writer.

Trip: 00:02:26

So occasionally it's like, I wouldn't have a default writing drink because

Trip: 00:02:29

I would have to, I would have to have a different drink for everything

Trip: 00:02:32

I'm writing to help frame my mind.

Tom: 00:02:35

No, so, um, writing in the pub, I mean, I've heard coffee

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shops, pubs is new for the podcast, but not for writers as I know.

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Um, is that because of the ambience?

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Is it kind of, because the setting, with your debut novel, you know, it's Goblin

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Market, I can sort of see the tavern sort of vibe of the hustle and bustle,

Tom: 00:02:58

um, is the pubs, helping with what you're writing at the moment, or is it

Tom: 00:03:02

just generally you like to write there?

Trip: 00:03:05

Um, so, I live in Limehouse.

Trip: 00:03:07

Uh, I've only lived here 10 months so far.

Trip: 00:03:10

There are no convenient libraries.

Trip: 00:03:13

I Do not have, good climate control, shall we say, in my space.

Trip: 00:03:20

So over the past summer, the local pub has really, really good air conditioning.

Trip: 00:03:26

And it's not, we're far enough out that it's not very crowded during most days.

Trip: 00:03:30

Um, so I can usually go and I can find there's a one particular tall

Trip: 00:03:35

round table, right in the corner, that I usually just occupy there

Trip: 00:03:39

and I can sit and it's not too loud.

Trip: 00:03:42

It's around the corner from, you know, the football being on the

Trip: 00:03:45

screen or the speaker playing music.

Trip: 00:03:48

And that it just sort of turns into white noise.

Trip: 00:03:50

and I can just sit there with, uh, with my keyboard and a drink.

Trip: 00:03:55

Because that's the polite thing to do when you're working in someone

Trip: 00:03:58

else's space, is to contribute to the maintenance of that space.

Tom: 00:04:01

Yeah.

Trip: 00:04:02

There aren't a lot of coffee shops around here.

Trip: 00:04:04

There's there's one I like, but it's much more crowded.

Trip: 00:04:07

Like the local pub, during the afternoons is quiet or more peaceful.

Trip: 00:04:11

And it just has this fantastic.

Trip: 00:04:14

vibe to it.

Trip: 00:04:15

It's, you know, it's got like the tin ceiling, you know, old fashioned,

Trip: 00:04:18

lots of exposed wood and a really just nice and congenial bar staff.

Tom: 00:04:24

Nice.

Tom: 00:04:24

So yeah, it's just, I find writing spaces such a fascinating thing, uh, because

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some people need absolute silence.

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Some people need the white noise.

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Some people need the hustle and bustle.

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But I think that's a healthy medium of just not too crowded,

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not too quiet and air conditioning.

Tom: 00:04:43

So, uh...

Trip: 00:04:44

I am such a welting flower.

Trip: 00:04:47

I, if it hits 27 or above.

Trip: 00:04:51

I just, I cease being functional in any reasonable way.

Tom: 00:04:55

27's my cutoff as well.

Tom: 00:04:57

There's a, a sitcom in the UK many years ago called Black Books.

Tom: 00:05:01

And there's, uh, oh you've seen it?

Trip: 00:05:03

Yep.

Tom: 00:05:03

Okay.

Tom: 00:05:04

And, uh, Dave Syndrome.

Tom: 00:05:06

That gets in with Manny and I think my Dave syndrome hits at 27.

Tom: 00:05:10

But, uh, no, that's, that's great.

Tom: 00:05:12

And so you said you're a vibes writer.

Tom: 00:05:15

Does that mean that like you're writing sessions are when you're

Tom: 00:05:19

feeling particularly creative or are you more disciplined?

Trip: 00:05:23

I work much better when I have a functional structure around me.

Trip: 00:05:28

It's not completely necessary.

Trip: 00:05:30

I am to a degree, adaptable, but I've, I found such a great

Trip: 00:05:36

deal of learning to write is learning how I write specifically.

Trip: 00:05:42

I Grew up on a cattle ranch in Midwestern America.

Trip: 00:05:45

I was woken up.

Trip: 00:05:47

Every morning, 5 36 a.

Trip: 00:05:49

m.

Trip: 00:05:50

And my body, up until I was about 40, uh, my body just internalized that.

Trip: 00:05:55

So I would pop up, I would be functional, writing a market of dreams and destiny.

Trip: 00:05:58

My best work was always up at six, get a solid two hours of

Trip: 00:06:03

writing in before I have to like make breakfast or do other things.

Trip: 00:06:07

So the earlier in the day it is, the more functional my writer brain is.

Trip: 00:06:12

That doesn't mean I don't like last night, I was writing until like 9pm.

Trip: 00:06:16

Because you know how happens errands explode and take so much more time

Trip: 00:06:21

than they're supposed to take.

Trip: 00:06:22

So last night, I had to work until nine to get some extra words in.

Trip: 00:06:26

So I, I can adapt to the circumstances, but I know that I work better, I

Trip: 00:06:31

work best earlier in the morning.

Trip: 00:06:33

Um, I work best with music in the background as long as it

Trip: 00:06:38

doesn't have English lyrics.

Tom: 00:06:40

Okay, yeah.

Trip: 00:06:41

Or lyrics that I understand.

Tom: 00:06:44

Yeah.

Trip: 00:06:44

Um, but aside from that, I can, I can work standing up.

Trip: 00:06:47

I can work in the pub.

Trip: 00:06:48

I can work in the coffee shop.

Trip: 00:06:49

I can work.

Trip: 00:06:50

on the bed, working at the kitchen table, et cetera.

Trip: 00:06:52

Um, it's more a matter of sliders than a matter of ritual or requirement.

Tom: 00:06:59

Okay.

Tom: 00:07:00

Nice.

Tom: 00:07:00

And when it comes to developing your ideas, are you someone who

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likes to start off with a world and sort of like, what kind of world

Tom: 00:07:10

these characters will inhabit?

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Or do you have a character in mind?

Tom: 00:07:13

Or is it more of a scenario and a concept?

Tom: 00:07:16

how do you start?

Tom: 00:07:18

Which first, which, which seems to spark the, the, uh, the story?

Trip: 00:07:25

it's absolutely different depending on the project.

Tom: 00:07:28

So your current projects.

Trip: 00:07:29

so I mean, my current project that I'm working on, well, I'm working on like

Trip: 00:07:33

three right now because time constraints.

Trip: 00:07:36

The main project I'm working right on right now is, um, the sequel

Trip: 00:07:41

to a market of dreams and destiny.

Trip: 00:07:43

So that began as a scenario.

Trip: 00:07:50

The scenario in question is given that you can trade anything at the goblin market.

Trip: 00:07:56

What happens when you trade the guilt for an action.

Trip: 00:08:00

As in the full responsibility, not just the emotional aftermath, but trading the

Trip: 00:08:06

facts that you committed a particular crime to someone else who then.

Trip: 00:08:11

Metaphysically functionally owns the facts that they committed that crime.

Trip: 00:08:15

What happens then?

Trip: 00:08:18

How do you get out of the frame job that's not a frame job because on a very

Trip: 00:08:22

real level you actually did the thing.

Trip: 00:08:24

So like the world is rippling and reshaping itself to point to you.

Trip: 00:08:29

Fingerprints change.

Trip: 00:08:31

People's memories change.

Trip: 00:08:33

Physical evidence changes, at a different rate.

Trip: 00:08:36

Memories are easier to change than a fingerprint because it's harder to affect,

Trip: 00:08:41

you know, the real world than someone's memory, which is fallible anyway.

Trip: 00:08:45

So it began with that concept slash scenario.

Trip: 00:08:50

but of course for a market of dreams and destiny, it began with the world.

Trip: 00:08:55

It began with the idea of this goblin market beneath London.

Tom: 00:08:59

Yeah, that's, that's really cool.

Tom: 00:09:01

And so, with your current project, when you have that scenario, I guess

Tom: 00:09:06

you've already got the world in place.

Tom: 00:09:08

When you're developing the plot and the characters and everything.

Tom: 00:09:13

Are you someone who likes to write freehand and use notebooks?

Tom: 00:09:17

Do you have an app on your phone?

Tom: 00:09:19

Is it all on your laptop?

Tom: 00:09:21

How do you map out the notes when you plan your outline?

Trip: 00:09:25

I am categorically addicted to Scrivener.

Trip: 00:09:27

Okay.

Trip: 00:09:27

Um, so I have, uh, I have a tablet.

Trip: 00:09:30

I did my whole PhD.

Trip: 00:09:32

I wrote all of a market of dreams and destiny on a tablet.

Trip: 00:09:35

so I have the app version of Scrivener, which doesn't have

Trip: 00:09:38

quite the same functionality as a desktop version, unfortunately.

Trip: 00:09:41

But yeah, I know the first thing will be a card with brainstorming, and then there'll

Trip: 00:09:45

be a card with like a cast of characters, um, there'll be a card for the outline.

Trip: 00:09:49

Sometimes multiple, multiple of these as I move stuff in

Trip: 00:09:52

and around and change my mind.

Trip: 00:09:54

before I was quite so addicted to Scrivener, I used Docs and Excel

Trip: 00:09:59

quite a lot, um, and I still use Docs and Excel when I am co writing, um,

Trip: 00:10:06

because it's much easier to share.

Tom: 00:10:08

Yeah, that sounds good.

Tom: 00:10:10

one thing I did want to get in with, uh, because one question I'd like to ask a

Tom: 00:10:14

lot of writers is about, uh, research.

Tom: 00:10:17

And your, PhD was on Goblin Markets, you've probably done a lot more research

Tom: 00:10:24

than others into the world building.

Tom: 00:10:27

how, um, long did your PhD take you to research, uh, you know,

Tom: 00:10:31

and write your thesis on that?

Tom: 00:10:32

And has that been the cornerstone to the world building that

Tom: 00:10:36

you've done since then?

Tom: 00:10:38

Or do you still like to research new things, as you write moving forward?

Trip: 00:10:42

Always always always always learning new things um finding cool

Trip: 00:10:46

stuff and like running after it and figuring out oh how does this fit in

Trip: 00:10:50

what are the implications of that.

Trip: 00:10:51

i mean the thing i found that since i'm no longer doing a phd my available

Trip: 00:10:55

time to invest in research has shrunk dramatically because you know there's this

Trip: 00:10:59

pesky little thing called money that we have to run around and earn and it just

Trip: 00:11:02

like it soaks up so much time doing that.

Trip: 00:11:05

But the PhD, like the whole process was about four years.

Trip: 00:11:11

I came into the PhD with the foundations of the world already existing.

Trip: 00:11:17

Actually the first plot I came up with, as an idea for the novel portion of my

Trip: 00:11:24

PhD studies did not survive six weeks.

Trip: 00:11:29

Um, it got trunked and a completely new set of characters, well, not a

Trip: 00:11:34

completely new set of characters, but a predominantly new set of characters

Trip: 00:11:37

and a new situation slash take on the Goblin market started developing

Trip: 00:11:44

about eight weeks into my PhD studies.

Trip: 00:11:47

But I began writing very early on.

Trip: 00:11:52

Not all of those words survived, not all of them made it into the final version,

Trip: 00:11:55

but there are certainly like solid chunks, particularly of the opening few chapters

Trip: 00:12:00

where there's a lot of market description, that has sections of them that have

Trip: 00:12:04

been there since, since the beginning.

Trip: 00:12:07

Um, Blatterbosch showed up very, very early.

Trip: 00:12:11

And the description of his stall with all of the eyeballs and fingers and hair and

Trip: 00:12:17

all of the other physical merchandise, shall we say, that he deals in has

Trip: 00:12:21

been there since very, very early on.

Trip: 00:12:23

Um, that came up quite quickly.

Trip: 00:12:27

Um, but yeah, it shifted, it changed, it took on All kinds

Trip: 00:12:32

of additional dimensionality.

Trip: 00:12:33

Because one of the things I did for research is I went to every single market

Trip: 00:12:39

I could find and reasonably get to.

Trip: 00:12:42

Portobello Road, I did a market up in Nottingham, I have a friend in Bristol

Trip: 00:12:48

who used to work for Bristol Council and he's like, Oh, well, we have in the

Trip: 00:12:53

archives we have contracts of indenture.

Trip: 00:12:56

We have period paintings of markets of the 1600s and 1700s, etc.

Trip: 00:13:02

I did a ton of research into markets and it just, it really, really informed

Trip: 00:13:07

and grounded sort of the reality of that particular part of the world.

Trip: 00:13:13

And then, of course, at the same time, I was reading every book

Trip: 00:13:15

on writing and editing theory and process that I could, you know, get

Trip: 00:13:21

my hands on quite a bit of research.

Trip: 00:13:23

But the writing went all the way through.

Trip: 00:13:26

Obviously, at the end, there was a lot more rewriting, writing new sections to

Trip: 00:13:30

make up for the characters and chapters that got trimmed or otherwise jettisoned.

Trip: 00:13:36

Um, I almost lost two chapters of the novel, actually.

Trip: 00:13:40

it was really unfortunate because they were, Both,

Trip: 00:13:43

chapters between Derry and Owein.

Trip: 00:13:45

Um, they were sort of like really key, sort of like emotional chapters and

Trip: 00:13:50

my partner proofreads everything I do.

Trip: 00:13:52

And he was going through and proofreading and he's like,

Trip: 00:13:54

where's the bit with the candle?

Trip: 00:13:55

The bit with the candle is missing.

Trip: 00:13:57

And I'm like, no, it's in there.

Trip: 00:13:58

It's totally in there.

Trip: 00:13:59

It wasn't.

Trip: 00:14:01

I couldn't find it.

Trip: 00:14:01

I could not find these chapters.

Trip: 00:14:03

I had, I searched for days until I found in an email that I had sent

Trip: 00:14:11

him like two years ago, a PDF version of a 75 percent completed draft.

Trip: 00:14:18

And I had to like, drag it out and retype them.

Trip: 00:14:21

And then I, when I did, I realized, Oh, these actually happened in a

Trip: 00:14:25

completely different narrative order than what I had settled on for the

Trip: 00:14:30

version that went for the PhD Viva.

Trip: 00:14:33

Um, so I had to like tweak and rewrite and whatnot.

Trip: 00:14:36

But I managed to, uh, regain a big chunk of it.

Tom: 00:14:39

Okay, that's good.

Tom: 00:14:41

And, yeah, I guess that can be massively nerve wracking when

Tom: 00:14:45

you're doing multiple drafts and taking different, narrative routes.

Trip: 00:14:49

It was extra stressful because I wrote the novel completely out of order.

Tom: 00:14:54

Okay.

Trip: 00:14:54

Um, because it was part of the PhD studies.

Trip: 00:14:57

Yeah.

Trip: 00:14:57

Um, when I needed to hand stuff in, uh, when my PhD supervisor, Dr.

Trip: 00:15:02

Tiffany Angus, said, give me 2000, 4, 000, 6, 000 words by next week, Friday.

Trip: 00:15:08

I just wrote them.

Trip: 00:15:09

Even if I was stuck on something, I would jump to whatever part of the

Trip: 00:15:12

novel l that I thought I had a handle on, wherever it was, and I would just

Trip: 00:15:18

write 4, 000 words, 6, 000 words.

Trip: 00:15:21

The beginning of the second year, one of these um, deadlines occurred, and I was

Trip: 00:15:27

like, I don't know what I'm doing next.

Trip: 00:15:29

But I know Dame Aurelia has this sort of arc, so I literally, I just wrote

Trip: 00:15:34

all of her bits in one document.

Trip: 00:15:36

All of her bits throughout the whole book.

Trip: 00:15:38

Most of which stayed, although I added some and some got moved around.

Trip: 00:15:43

But yeah, I wrote, I wrote basically her entire arc through the whole

Trip: 00:15:45

book and then just handed that in.

Trip: 00:15:47

Even though I hadn't finished the ending.

Trip: 00:15:49

So it was, it was written completely out of order and it was the greatest

Trip: 00:15:52

nightmare of my life trying to edit and make it make sense.

Tom: 00:15:57

Yeah, I guess with that, you know, in year one, you have got a

Tom: 00:16:01

rough outline of the story beats.

Tom: 00:16:04

But that obviously changed quite a bit as it went on.

Tom: 00:16:08

Do you still try and have a roadmap, when you start a new

Tom: 00:16:12

project, and how detailed is that?

Tom: 00:16:15

Is that just like an end goal, here are some thematic arcs I want to try

Tom: 00:16:19

and achieve, or do you try and beat for beat, go through the main plot points?

Trip: 00:16:24

I think of it like a map, like the old style map.

Trip: 00:16:27

You would have landmarks, because you didn't have roads leading between things.

Trip: 00:16:31

But like if you're on the Oregon Trail, for example, you knew you had to look

Trip: 00:16:35

for Chimney Rock, a big visible landmark.

Trip: 00:16:39

That you are heading for before you start heading to the next thing.

Trip: 00:16:43

That's sort of how, how I function now, uh, in terms of my writing process.

Trip: 00:16:48

I can get 25 percent of the way into a project before nailing down

Trip: 00:16:54

the ending, but no more than that.

Tom: 00:16:56

Okay.

Trip: 00:16:56

If I do not know very strongly what the ending is going to look

Trip: 00:17:01

like by the time I hit that point.

Trip: 00:17:03

I will just spin my wheels endlessly.

Trip: 00:17:07

Um, I need, I need to know where I'm going.

Trip: 00:17:10

And then once I have that, I will work backwards.

Trip: 00:17:14

Okay, if I'm going to get there, I need to hit this first.

Trip: 00:17:16

And to hit that, I will need this other thing.

Trip: 00:17:19

And then I write towards the next landmark on the map.

Tom: 00:17:24

And.

Tom: 00:17:25

Although you have an, you know, an ending by a quarter of the

Tom: 00:17:28

way through, does it ever change?

Tom: 00:17:30

Like, you get, like, another 25, 40 percent through and then you go, Oh, wait,

Tom: 00:17:34

actually that ending doesn't work anymore.

Tom: 00:17:36

A more true ending could be something else.

Tom: 00:17:39

Or has that not happened yet?

Tom: 00:17:41

Could that happen?

Trip: 00:17:42

That has not, that has not yet happened to me.

Trip: 00:17:44

What tends to happen is I will go back to the middle and I

Trip: 00:17:47

will beat the middle into shape.

Tom: 00:17:50

Okay.

Trip: 00:17:50

Until that through line emerges from the middle, because the middle

Trip: 00:17:54

is the bit that I struggle with most.

Trip: 00:17:56

Anyway, I know I'm going to spend a lot of time on it.

Trip: 00:17:59

I know I'm going to agonize over it.

Trip: 00:18:01

So if I'm going to already be that deep into the weeds or the

Trip: 00:18:06

guts of the thing, That's, that's where I try and do my realignment,

Trip: 00:18:10

rather than, Change the ending.

Tom: 00:18:13

Okay, that leads on quite well with what I was going to ask about next,

Tom: 00:18:17

which is kind of the daily grind of it is, you know, there can be a lot of fun

Tom: 00:18:22

with plotting and like mapping out and sort of like coming up with the story.

Tom: 00:18:26

And then it could be, Quite therapeutic to edit and refine but actually getting

Tom: 00:18:31

the first draft, nuts and bolts, Uh getting it on the page, can be a

Tom: 00:18:35

real struggle for a lot of people where a lot of people fall down.

Tom: 00:18:39

Um, how do you discipline yourself without having a Supervisor giving you deadlines.

Tom: 00:18:45

How do you discipline yourself to get in the words on the page now?

Trip: 00:18:47

Um, I have a daily to do list, um, little, little tickable

Trip: 00:18:52

boxes, which are so, so satisfying.

Trip: 00:18:55

But in the evening, I have a box for reflecting on what I've done.

Trip: 00:19:01

But I also have a box for, Review the chapters that I'm

Trip: 00:19:05

want to write the next day.

Trip: 00:19:07

So that I have that going through my subconscious.

Trip: 00:19:10

and that when I wake up, I already know what the road map is.

Trip: 00:19:14

So I don't spend as much time trying to orient myself.

Trip: 00:19:18

Um, so if I, if I've done that, if I know generally where I'm going, if I've

Trip: 00:19:23

taken the time to say, okay, this, this reversal needs to happen in this chapter.

Trip: 00:19:28

Uh, I need to hit these three bullet points of information somehow in there.

Trip: 00:19:32

It makes it so much easier when I wake up first thing in the morning

Trip: 00:19:35

to just be like, right, keyboard on, fingers type, you know, Going for that.

Trip: 00:19:40

Um, because if I have to figure it out before I go, then I spend so much

Trip: 00:19:43

time and then I start, like, getting distracted, like, oh, don't want

Trip: 00:19:46

breakfast, don't want another cup of tea.

Trip: 00:19:48

But if I know, it's a way that I've found to reduce the friction.

Tom: 00:19:52

Yeah.

Trip: 00:19:53

There's little ways to reduce the friction to make it easier.

Trip: 00:19:56

and I find that also on days where I write, even a few hundred

Trip: 00:20:01

words before breakfast, my chances of writing a few thousand words

Trip: 00:20:05

for the day massively increase.

Trip: 00:20:09

If I wait even till after breakfast to get those few hundred words in,

Trip: 00:20:12

I can still probably pull out like a couple thousand words if I have to,

Trip: 00:20:16

but it becomes much more difficult and it eats up a lot more time.

Trip: 00:20:21

Um, so, my process is figuring out what I'm going to do the next day so that I

Trip: 00:20:26

can just do it first thing in the morning.

Trip: 00:20:28

And then repeat that.

Tom: 00:20:30

That's great.

Tom: 00:20:31

I hear a lot of writers who will do the morning review of the day before,

Tom: 00:20:36

like come back to it fresh, but to actually write, break, reflect.

Tom: 00:20:41

And do that reflection the night before so that when you wake up,

Tom: 00:20:46

you've already got that goal in mind.

Tom: 00:20:47

That's really interesting.

Trip: 00:20:49

I think it also helps like the subconscious.

Tom: 00:20:51

Yeah.

Trip: 00:20:51

Because like writing is as much a subconscious process as it is a

Trip: 00:20:54

conscious one, particularly for me.

Trip: 00:20:56

Um, it's hard to say how much like had just been worked

Trip: 00:20:59

through while I've been asleep.

Tom: 00:21:01

Yeah.

Trip: 00:21:02

And then I wake up and I can just put the words on paper.

Tom: 00:21:04

That's nice.

Tom: 00:21:06

And, uh, you mentioned you having little tick box daily goals sort of thing.

Tom: 00:21:10

Is that a, I'm going to write for this many hours or I have

Tom: 00:21:14

to hit a certain word target?

Tom: 00:21:15

What's your writing goals generally for a day?

Trip: 00:21:20

I tend to find that writing takes up the amount of time you have for it.

Trip: 00:21:26

I would love, my life would be so much easier If I could just say, I'm

Trip: 00:21:31

gonna write for two hours this morning and then move on to the next thing.

Trip: 00:21:35

But if I do that, my brain will obsess.

Trip: 00:21:37

That nasty little like perfectionism imp that I have tried so hard to exercise and

Trip: 00:21:43

I cannot exercise for the life of me, like the most I can do is like chain it, ball

Trip: 00:21:48

gag it, stick it in a Cage in the corner.

Trip: 00:21:51

If I I'm writing for two hours, I'm going to start hearing that little voice.

Trip: 00:21:56

It's like, Oh no, this needs to be better.

Trip: 00:21:57

That needs to be better.

Trip: 00:21:59

Does the logic of this work perfectly?

Trip: 00:22:01

and then I hit the end of my two hours and I've got a couple hundred words.

Trip: 00:22:05

Whereas if I say, look, I have got to hit 2000 words in this two hours.

Trip: 00:22:12

Then I can go right.

Trip: 00:22:13

Fine.

Trip: 00:22:14

This many words in 15 minute sprints with like five minute breaks in between.

Trip: 00:22:18

and then I'm like, okay, I can hit that.

Trip: 00:22:20

Um, and if I run into a problem, it's much easier for me to go

Trip: 00:22:23

like, Nope, I need to do my words.

Trip: 00:22:25

Write it now, fix it in post.

Trip: 00:22:27

Or, you don't know this bit, fine, skip to the next bit, write that,

Trip: 00:22:30

and then go back and link them.

Trip: 00:22:31

But if I've given myself a time limit, my brain will hit that little

Trip: 00:22:36

impediment and it will stick on it.

Tom: 00:22:38

Right.

Trip: 00:22:39

It would be much healthier for me to just do time limit, but it

Trip: 00:22:44

is much more effective for my brain to do word limit, do a word limit.

Trip: 00:22:49

Especially because, this is something that I have done off and on, but

Trip: 00:22:52

I have done every day since the beginning of 2025 is I am now keeping

Trip: 00:22:55

like a word count sort of document.

Trip: 00:22:57

And I enter in every day how many words I produced.

Trip: 00:23:01

And like, I found that really helpful.

Trip: 00:23:04

Just because time and experience, like, are so subjective.

Trip: 00:23:10

If I didn't do that, it could be very easy for like three days to

Trip: 00:23:13

slip by, five days to slip by.

Trip: 00:23:15

Where I felt like I've been doing stuff, but then at the end of that, I don't

Trip: 00:23:18

have more than a few hundred words.

Trip: 00:23:20

If that.

Trip: 00:23:21

because I'm like, Oh, I need to do this other really important things like,

Trip: 00:23:23

Oh, no, no, I need to do self promotion on social media, or, I need to figure

Trip: 00:23:27

out this one specific plot point.

Trip: 00:23:29

And it's got to be just right.

Trip: 00:23:30

That can just like suck so much time away.

Trip: 00:23:33

Um, I have a huge tendency to allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good.

Tom: 00:23:38

Yeah.

Trip: 00:23:38

Um, or even the finished.

Trip: 00:23:41

Um, the only way I have found for me to get around that is to do this

Trip: 00:23:45

sort of like granular tracking.

Trip: 00:23:47

because then I can be like, okay.

Trip: 00:23:48

This got accomplished.

Trip: 00:23:49

That chapter was done.

Trip: 00:23:50

I can move on to the next thing.

Trip: 00:23:52

Yes, it's going to be a nightmare to edit, but that is a problem for future trip.

Trip: 00:23:57

Which I mean, is a much smaller problem than handing future trip, oh, sorry,

Trip: 00:24:02

you still have to write the whole flipping novel in addition to editing it.

Trip: 00:24:07

Rather than be like, look, past trip has already written the novel.

Trip: 00:24:11

You just have to make it a bit better.

Tom: 00:24:13

Yes, with your writing style of, oh, this is a sticking

Tom: 00:24:16

point, I'm going to skip ahead and, where you were with the PhD.

Tom: 00:24:21

You know, I'll write this person's character arc out

Tom: 00:24:23

of sync with the main thing.

Tom: 00:24:25

When it comes to all these problem areas that you've like, put off and put off,

Tom: 00:24:31

by doing everything else, does that make solving those problems easier or harder?

Trip: 00:24:36

Uh, I find it makes it easier for me.

Tom: 00:24:38

Okay.

Trip: 00:24:39

So this has a lot of bearing on both my drafting

Trip: 00:24:42

process and my editing process.

Trip: 00:24:44

Um, but this is a realization I had about the way I write.

Trip: 00:24:49

And it took me this, this only came up, uh, a couple of years ago.

Trip: 00:24:53

and It revolves around the way I read, actually.

Trip: 00:24:57

so, there's this thing, uh, where some people, when they read, they

Trip: 00:25:01

do not see pictures in their head.

Trip: 00:25:03

And then on the other end of the spectrum is, people where they

Trip: 00:25:06

read and they've got like a full 4D experience going on behind their eyes.

Trip: 00:25:11

I'm not quite that extreme, but I am much, much more on the movie

Trip: 00:25:15

in my brain end of the spectrum.

Trip: 00:25:17

When I read a book, I do not consciously register the words on the page.

Trip: 00:25:22

I don't notice them because there's a movie going on behind my eyes.

Trip: 00:25:27

I don't see chapter breaks, I just, it just, it just goes.

Trip: 00:25:30

So if I have to, when I'm reading, say, Oh, you can only read for this amount of

Trip: 00:25:35

time, I literally have to physically take a bookmark and put it on the chapter I

Trip: 00:25:40

want to end on in the way, to break my field of vision and to stop the movie.

Trip: 00:25:45

Otherwise, I will lose all sense of time.

Trip: 00:25:48

I will completely dissociate and I will just read for hours.

Trip: 00:25:52

And I'll look up and think it's been 15 minutes.

Trip: 00:25:55

And my partner will have been like, we were supposed to be

Trip: 00:25:57

at the film 90 minutes ago.

Trip: 00:26:00

Yeah.

Trip: 00:26:00

What's going on?

Trip: 00:26:02

I just, I There's a complete disconnect between the actual black and white words

Trip: 00:26:06

on the page and what happens when I read.

Trip: 00:26:09

And I've realized that I sort of do that in reverse when I'm writing.

Trip: 00:26:14

I Have a vibe or an image or a scene or situation that I can see and feel.

Trip: 00:26:23

And when I'm writing, it's very hard for me To fully focus on the words.

Trip: 00:26:27

I do it to an extent because like, oh, I'm writing a scene where there's like

Trip: 00:26:31

this anthropomorphic queen of bees.

Trip: 00:26:33

So, like, my brain registers it enough to know, like, okay, we're

Trip: 00:26:37

looking for honey metaphors.

Trip: 00:26:38

We're looking for describing things as being like wax.

Trip: 00:26:41

Um, if they're not actually wax.

Trip: 00:26:42

We're looking for like hive minds and buzzing and honeycomb

Trip: 00:26:46

and hexagons and things.

Trip: 00:26:49

but.

Trip: 00:26:49

Yeah.

Trip: 00:26:49

It's very difficult for me to actually register words on a page.

Trip: 00:26:52

Yeah.

Trip: 00:26:53

Editing is very, very difficult for me.

Tom: 00:26:55

Okay.

Tom: 00:26:55

And we will come on to editing in a moment, but there's one other part of

Tom: 00:26:59

the drafting process that I want to cover with you, which is something that

Tom: 00:27:03

you're doing, which is quite unique to a lot of writers and might feel, well,

Tom: 00:27:07

your Patreon at the moment, you're writing, uh, A Game Beyond Death and

Tom: 00:27:12

that drafting process you're putting out.

Tom: 00:27:15

You're putting chapters out as you write them.

Tom: 00:27:19

Are they fully first drafts or do you want to talk a bit more

Tom: 00:27:23

about how that's being developed?

Trip: 00:27:25

So the process for a game beyond death is really it's the

Trip: 00:27:29

process of me writing anything.

Trip: 00:27:31

I came up with the idea.

Trip: 00:27:33

I fleshed out the beginning and a bit of the end in enough to start.

Trip: 00:27:40

I'm a little bit worried about the end.

Trip: 00:27:41

I'm a little bit worried that it's going to, the ending is going to

Trip: 00:27:43

shift on me a little bit more than it usually does on one of my projects.

Trip: 00:27:48

I'm sure it'll be fine.

Trip: 00:27:49

But yeah, so I have the concept.

Trip: 00:27:51

I have the enough of a feel of the characters.

Trip: 00:27:53

They're going to like grow and change more, but it's basically what you read

Trip: 00:27:59

when you are reading chapter to chapter for a game beyond death is pretty much,

Trip: 00:28:05

if it's not a first draft, it's like a 1.

Trip: 00:28:08

15 draft.

Trip: 00:28:10

Um, what you were reading on the page is the words as I wrote them down.

Trip: 00:28:15

My partner is a professional proofreader and copy editor.

Trip: 00:28:18

He will have gone through, so we will have eliminated the annoying nasty words, we'll

Trip: 00:28:22

put commas in the right places, it will have a proofread on it, and it will have

Trip: 00:28:25

a very light copy edit, where he's like, you've used this word like five times,

Trip: 00:28:29

or You should mention this thing like two paragraphs earlier for better flow.

Trip: 00:28:34

But generally what you were reading on my Patreon on those first drafts

Trip: 00:28:38

are, yeah, it's like, it's like a 1.

Trip: 00:28:40

15.

Trip: 00:28:41

Um, it's pretty much as I wrote it.

Tom: 00:28:45

This is very different from your usual writing, where if there's

Tom: 00:28:49

something sticking, if you're having to give that linear narrative to

Tom: 00:28:53

your patrons, uh, you can't skip.

Trip: 00:28:57

I'm still skipping.

Tom: 00:28:58

Okay.

Trip: 00:28:58

Because I'm writing it slightly ahead of posting it.

Tom: 00:29:03

Okay.

Trip: 00:29:03

like, right now, I think there are currently two chapters up.

Trip: 00:29:07

I have three chapters written beyond that.

Trip: 00:29:09

Writing today.

Trip: 00:29:11

I was writing, I don't know, let's call it chapter, chapter five.

Trip: 00:29:14

I don't know what the actual chapter was, um, because I don't

Trip: 00:29:16

have it right in front of me.

Trip: 00:29:17

I wrote the first, first 50%.

Trip: 00:29:20

I got completely stuck, but I'm like, I know how this chapter ends.

Trip: 00:29:23

I jumped to the end.

Trip: 00:29:24

I wrote the last 250 words.

Trip: 00:29:26

And having done that, I'm like, okay, that's where I'm going.

Trip: 00:29:29

I got between 750 and 1250 words roughly for the pacing that

Trip: 00:29:37

I'm going for to get there.

Trip: 00:29:39

How do I hit that that and that by the time I get there.

Trip: 00:29:42

And that's usually enough to get me Unblocked in this sort of thing.

Trip: 00:29:46

The things that will slow me down a little bit is I have sort of like a detailed

Trip: 00:29:52

ish outline like the first 12 chapters.

Trip: 00:29:56

What's gonna slow me down is here in a couple days, I'm gonna go like okay.

Trip: 00:29:59

I've run through my detailed outline notes.

Trip: 00:30:02

The next Landmark is this.

Trip: 00:30:05

Roughly feels like it's roughly four chapters.

Trip: 00:30:08

It doesn't feel like it's more than four chapters of story.

Trip: 00:30:11

What happens in each of those chapters and figuring out a slightly

Trip: 00:30:15

more detailed description of what happens in each of those chapters.

Trip: 00:30:18

So that I can wake up in the morning and you're like, right,

Trip: 00:30:21

this is what I'm doing today.

Trip: 00:30:22

That's, that, that, that.

Trip: 00:30:22

Um, that's, that those are going to be the speed bumps that,

Trip: 00:30:26

that slow down this process.

Trip: 00:30:27

Fortunately, I have a partner who is a trained dramaturge.

Trip: 00:30:32

Is a huge fan of science fiction and fantasy, loves me, loves my writing.

Trip: 00:30:36

So if I get stuck, I can go, Hey, can we go on a walk?

Trip: 00:30:40

And I have this problem and I'm going to talk about it and you're going to

Trip: 00:30:45

tell me what works and what doesn't.

Trip: 00:30:46

And then I'm going to sort out how to move forward.

Tom: 00:30:50

Nice.

Trip: 00:30:50

Um, we do that quite frequently.

Trip: 00:30:53

usually along Regent's canal cause it's beautiful and it's, you know, There's

Trip: 00:30:57

not too much city, but you can still like nip off to a cafe if you need to.

Tom: 00:31:01

Yeah, I think, um, walking definitely can free up the problem solving part

Tom: 00:31:06

of your brain and having someone like a physical person who, like you say,

Tom: 00:31:11

understands narratives and You can talk it out with is, is fantastic.

Trip: 00:31:16

Oh, yeah, because that's the other thing.

Trip: 00:31:17

because I I co write with other authors.

Trip: 00:31:21

My bestt co writing friend is an author called C.

Trip: 00:31:23

L.

Trip: 00:31:24

McCartney, who is also one of my fellow editors on I Want That Twink Obliterated.

Trip: 00:31:28

And having a discussion with him, because he kept saying,

Trip: 00:31:31

well, just fix it this way.

Trip: 00:31:33

And I'm like, no, that doesn't work for me.

Trip: 00:31:34

And he didn't understand why until we like broke it down.

Trip: 00:31:36

And I'm like, no, no, no.

Trip: 00:31:37

When I read something, this is what happens.

Trip: 00:31:39

He's like, how do you edit or write anything?

Trip: 00:31:40

If you don't see the words you're actually choosing, cause he's very

Trip: 00:31:42

much on the other end of the spectrum.

Trip: 00:31:45

He sees the words when he reads them.

Trip: 00:31:46

And so we had this fabulous in depth conversation.

Trip: 00:31:50

and it's really informed so much of like, the way I now approach my writing.

Trip: 00:31:55

Knowing Oh, I do this, I need to be aware of this.

Trip: 00:31:58

Because when I'm writing, I'm like, okay, I am aiming for this kind of

Trip: 00:32:04

feeling with this kind of character and this thing needs to happen.

Trip: 00:32:07

And I can't, when I'm reading over and editing, it's very difficult

Trip: 00:32:11

for me to separate out what is on the page from what is in my head.

Trip: 00:32:16

The number of times I have had an editor, usually my partner,

Trip: 00:32:20

go, you did not say this.

Trip: 00:32:23

And I'll be like, no, no, no, I totally said that.

Trip: 00:32:25

And then I go back and I like very carefully read through it.

Trip: 00:32:27

And I'm like, there's not even a mention of that word.

Trip: 00:32:30

I'm like, but, but it was there in my head.

Trip: 00:32:32

And because I knew it, I can't separate out what exists for

Trip: 00:32:36

the reader separate from myself.

Trip: 00:32:38

It's very, very difficult for me.

Trip: 00:32:40

so when I'm writing, I'm trying to hold 15 things in my brain all at once and

Trip: 00:32:46

part of my drafting process is doing little writing projects that help me

Trip: 00:32:54

get a feel for, okay, this is, this is the way this character speaks.

Trip: 00:32:58

So I can take that 15 percent of my brain that was trying to hold on to,

Trip: 00:33:04

okay, this character speaks like this and pull it down to like 5 percent, so

Trip: 00:33:07

that I can spin the other six plates that I'm trying to spin more smoothly.

Trip: 00:33:12

Because when like, other people write, they can go through and do like,

Trip: 00:33:16

okay, I'm just doing the structure.

Trip: 00:33:18

And then they go through, oh, now I'll do a dialogue pass, and then they'll

Trip: 00:33:21

go back and they'll go through again.

Trip: 00:33:22

And like, now I'll polish up like word choice and adverbs and like,

Trip: 00:33:25

oh, I'll write this thing in here and I'll add that thing in there.

Trip: 00:33:28

Because when I read something on the page, it's a movie in my head.

Trip: 00:33:34

That doesn't work for my writing process.

Trip: 00:33:36

I need to hold as much in my head as I can, so that as much

Trip: 00:33:40

as possible goes on with the page as part of the drafting process.

Trip: 00:33:44

Uh, because if I had to like layer it through like that, I wouldn't be

Trip: 00:33:48

able to because I would read through it three times and I would know I

Trip: 00:33:52

would have it subconsciously in my brain that what is happening here is

Trip: 00:33:56

the Duke is using sub vocal magical chanting in order to obtain the

Trip: 00:34:03

results he wants from this negotiation.

Trip: 00:34:06

I would know that.

Trip: 00:34:06

And I'd read through it like three or four times.

Trip: 00:34:09

And it wouldn't, would not occur to me that I did not explicitly

Trip: 00:34:12

say it with those specific words because I don't see the specific

Trip: 00:34:16

words when I'm reading stuff back.

Trip: 00:34:18

Um, I can do it.

Trip: 00:34:20

I can like break it down so that I'm looking at a sentence by sentence, but

Trip: 00:34:23

it's much easier for me to like do it on the sentence by sentence level, literally

Trip: 00:34:27

reading backward through a chapter.

Tom: 00:34:29

So I guess it's, you know, great having a partner who is a proofreader

Tom: 00:34:33

professionally and co writers.

Tom: 00:34:36

I think editors are the unsung heroes of novels a lot of the time anyway.

Tom: 00:34:42

But it sounds

Trip: 00:34:43

Absolutely, 100%.

Tom: 00:34:44

For you, especially the way that you write, because when you read it, it's

Tom: 00:34:47

the movie, it's not the granular word by word, having that external person to

Tom: 00:34:53

be, have you conveyed the message in the words that are on the page is essential,

Tom: 00:34:59

to make sure that what you're seeing in your movie is actually there on the

Tom: 00:35:04

page, uh, like, you know, the example you gave of, oh, it's in there and,

Tom: 00:35:09

you know, it wasn't, so your partner, I guess, you know, the first person to read

Tom: 00:35:15

a draft, do they give detailed notes on a, on a granular level, or is it just a

Tom: 00:35:23

chapter, this is what I got out of it.

Tom: 00:35:25

I, I, cause I guess they, they do proofread, but how do they help you?

Tom: 00:35:30

How do their notes come across to you?

Tom: 00:35:32

Uh, is it like things read underlined?

Tom: 00:35:35

Is it on a separate document?

Tom: 00:35:37

How, how do your edits come to you?

Tom: 00:35:39

And also, I'm sorry, I'm doing multi part questions, which is very annoying.

Tom: 00:35:43

How do you respond to that?

Tom: 00:35:44

Is that a good thing to receive?

Tom: 00:35:46

Is it a relief to get those?

Tom: 00:35:47

Or is it like, no, it should be perfect.

Tom: 00:35:49

Why are you criticizing me?

Trip: 00:35:51

I'm going to answer this sort of like, like generally.

Trip: 00:35:52

Not the full editorial process, but sort of like the where

Trip: 00:35:55

it goes once I let it go.

Tom: 00:35:57

Yeah.

Trip: 00:35:58

So with a game beyond death, because I'm releasing it at a regular

Trip: 00:36:02

interval, my partner will read like three chapters at a time, and then I'll

Trip: 00:36:07

go and I'll schedule him on the Patreon.

Trip: 00:36:08

And while he's doing that, he knows my house style.

Trip: 00:36:12

He knows that We're putting everything into British English.

Trip: 00:36:15

He knows we're using the Oxford comma, et cetera, et cetera, those sorts of things.

Trip: 00:36:19

So he will just, carte blanche, he will just fix those and

Trip: 00:36:22

he will make those work.

Trip: 00:36:23

Whenever there is something that is a question of style, he will, he will

Trip: 00:36:27

literally just do it right in front of me and I will sit there with like

Trip: 00:36:29

a cup of tea and like read a book and he will say, you've used the word

Trip: 00:36:34

roiling four times in two paragraphs.

Trip: 00:36:37

And I will pop up and I will go over.

Trip: 00:36:40

And I'll be like, uh, that one has to stay, that one has to stay, we're

Trip: 00:36:42

going to change that to something else, and actually I'm just going to

Trip: 00:36:46

take out that entire, like, clause, because I don't actually need it.

Trip: 00:36:50

And I'll just do like little spot edits, and then he'll go

Trip: 00:36:52

back over it again and resume.

Trip: 00:36:54

And so it'll just be back and forth right there, just like really

Trip: 00:36:56

quick fixes, um, and that's it.

Trip: 00:36:59

He doesn't really do dev edit stuff, or deep structural stuff.

Trip: 00:37:04

He generally, when he edits, he like, he reads my stuff, and he like,

Trip: 00:37:08

fixes all my grammar peccadillos, and Small copy line edit sort of stuff.

Trip: 00:37:13

He will flag for me and then I'll like pop in and I will quickly fix it.

Trip: 00:37:17

And then sometimes we'll have an extended debate back and forth

Trip: 00:37:20

about my fix, because I get very particular about the sound of things.

Tom: 00:37:24

Okay, yeah.

Trip: 00:37:25

Um, I have this discussion with Chris, C.

Trip: 00:37:27

L.

Trip: 00:37:27

McCartney, all the time.

Trip: 00:37:29

Because they'd be like, no, just change the word.

Trip: 00:37:30

I'm like, I can't change the word because it changes the sound.

Trip: 00:37:33

And if it changes the sound, it changes the rhythm of the sentence.

Trip: 00:37:35

And it just, it just, no, it does.

Trip: 00:37:37

The whole, the whole, the whole chapter, like, falls flat.

Trip: 00:37:40

Um, and we will have these, like, really long, drawn out arguments,

Trip: 00:37:44

which I find incredibly fulfilling.

Trip: 00:37:46

And they make me deeply joyous.

Trip: 00:37:48

Um, but it's that sort of thing.

Trip: 00:37:50

It's like,

Trip: 00:37:52

Uh, my entire family on my mother's side are musicians, and not a

Trip: 00:37:56

single one is classically trained.

Trip: 00:37:57

None of them were taught to read music.

Trip: 00:38:00

They all learned how to play by ear.

Trip: 00:38:02

They're all very, very good at playing by ear, being very musical.

Trip: 00:38:07

Um, I did not get that gift at all.

Trip: 00:38:10

But I think of the way I write in a very similar fashion.

Trip: 00:38:13

I sort of write by ear.

Trip: 00:38:15

I have read a lot of stuff.

Trip: 00:38:16

I know how stuff holds to sound.

Trip: 00:38:18

Um, and it just sort of like comes out so I do have opinions

Trip: 00:38:22

on specific word choices.

Trip: 00:38:24

And like I'm, I will be talked out of them.

Trip: 00:38:26

I do have a tendency to use 10 dollar words because that's

Trip: 00:38:29

just how my brain works.

Trip: 00:38:30

but I can occasionally be talked out of it, talked down from using them.

Trip: 00:38:34

Although sometimes that becomes a whole new argument because

Trip: 00:38:38

I'm like, Oh no, you're right.

Trip: 00:38:39

I'll change that word.

Trip: 00:38:39

But then that also means I have to rephrase this entire sentence

Trip: 00:38:42

to use different words so that it flows correctly, uh, flows

Trip: 00:38:46

properly and sounds right.

Trip: 00:38:48

Um, like, no, you didn't need to change that.

Trip: 00:38:50

I'm like, no, absolutely.

Trip: 00:38:51

If I'm changing this word to that, then the whole thing has to change.

Trip: 00:38:54

Otherwise it doesn't sound correct to the flow of the story that's happening.

Tom: 00:38:58

As a reader, I totally get that.

Tom: 00:39:00

Because there are some books that you can have a 300 page book.

Tom: 00:39:05

And you're going to have one book that you can read in a day, and you have

Tom: 00:39:09

another book that takes you weeks.

Tom: 00:39:12

And it's just the flow of the sentences, the flow of the

Tom: 00:39:16

pages, the flow of the chapters.

Tom: 00:39:18

If it just keeps you reading, and it's like candy for the

Tom: 00:39:22

brain, it's absolute joyous.

Tom: 00:39:24

And as a reader, I'm not conscious of word choice in that way.

Tom: 00:39:28

But some, it's just very static and it's very slow and it's a bit of a

Tom: 00:39:32

grind and a chore to get through.

Tom: 00:39:34

so, yeah, that totally works for me, and I must say, it was less

Tom: 00:39:39

than a week that I read your book.

Tom: 00:39:41

It was phenomenal, it was a great read.

Tom: 00:39:44

But also, I think The stakes for the characters, you get invested.

Tom: 00:39:48

So you want to make sure everything's all right.

Tom: 00:39:50

You want to know how they get themselves out of the situations they're in.

Tom: 00:39:54

so yeah, I get that.

Trip: 00:39:56

Thank you.

Trip: 00:39:56

And like a lot of that is also down to everyone who helped me edit it.

Trip: 00:40:00

My partner, Robert, absolutely fantastic proofreading, line editing, helping

Trip: 00:40:04

me solve all of these little issues.

Trip: 00:40:07

So it goes to him, like, market of dreams and destiny.

Trip: 00:40:09

Everything went to him first.

Trip: 00:40:11

Then it went to Chris because Chris reads and writes completely different than I do.

Trip: 00:40:15

And Chris has possibly one of the best eyes for structure that I've

Trip: 00:40:20

ever encountered in my entire life.

Trip: 00:40:22

And he'll be like, I love all of this.

Trip: 00:40:24

Like your vibes are still on point.

Trip: 00:40:26

We are now going to have an extended discussion about like the chassis.

Trip: 00:40:31

Uh, we're going to talk about sort of like fixing your carburetor or whatever.

Trip: 00:40:34

I don't, I'm not super mechanically inclined in terms of like cars, but he

Trip: 00:40:38

used a car analogy when we were talking about a market of dreams and destiny.

Trip: 00:40:41

I don't know why, he's not super into cars either.

Trip: 00:40:44

Um, but yeah, it'll go to, it'll go to Robert, it will go to Chris.

Trip: 00:40:47

Chris will help me clear up a lot of structure, structural issues, and it will

Trip: 00:40:51

go to the rest of my, my beta readers who, who obviously provide different

Trip: 00:40:57

levels of insight and feedback and then I will, then I will do editorial

Trip: 00:41:01

triage and implement the changes.

Tom: 00:41:04

And when the book's finally finished.

Tom: 00:41:07

The proofs are done, it's off to the printers.

Tom: 00:41:10

Do you feel a sense of relief that it's complete?

Tom: 00:41:14

Or is there more grief of, you know, you've developed this world, you've

Tom: 00:41:18

got these characters, their story is done, and you're not gonna be spending

Tom: 00:41:23

time with them day in, day out.

Tom: 00:41:25

Is the movie is over, and is that a sad thing, or is it just like, yes!

Tom: 00:41:30

Done right onto the next thing?

Trip: 00:41:33

I'm Generally very happy because it means I'm done doing edits.

Trip: 00:41:36

And edits are the thing that I find The most difficult about the entire process.

Trip: 00:41:40

So just my relief at no longer having to do edits.

Tom: 00:41:43

Yeah Yeah

Trip: 00:41:44

Probably occludes any sort of like bittersweet melancholy that

Trip: 00:41:47

may arise from the fact that I am done writing this particular story.

Trip: 00:41:51

But generally I have So many things that I want to write that my brain

Trip: 00:41:57

is already plotting The next thing while I'm still in the middle of the

Trip: 00:42:01

previous thing, which is not useful.

Trip: 00:42:04

Or not nearly as useful as it could be.

Trip: 00:42:07

Yeah Because it really splits focus.

Trip: 00:42:09

Yeah so yeah, I generally, I'm happy to hand it off.

Trip: 00:42:14

Because quite frankly when the book goes through the printers That's just the

Trip: 00:42:16

beginning of a whole new cycle Of like little tiny, excited, awesome things.

Trip: 00:42:21

Like cover art or, Ooh, arcs or, Oh, it's finally in the store

Trip: 00:42:27

or actually going to hold it.

Trip: 00:42:28

I get to get a hold, the actual thing, the physical thing.

Trip: 00:42:31

Yeah, I actually think I, I have more of a melancholic

Trip: 00:42:34

reaction after publication day.

Trip: 00:42:36

But again, I think that has a lot to do with how, how much time and energy

Trip: 00:42:41

and like, buzz builds s up into it in the lead up to publication because,

Trip: 00:42:46

you know, it's quite a long process and there's like, Ooh, I'm writing an

Trip: 00:42:50

article for this blog and I'm appearing on this podcast and I'm on this panel

Trip: 00:42:54

talking about this thing that's related to the book and et cetera, et cetera.

Trip: 00:42:58

And then it goes out into the world.

Trip: 00:43:00

And then the publisher is like, okay, moving on.

Trip: 00:43:02

We're ready for the next thing.

Trip: 00:43:04

Good job.

Trip: 00:43:04

Yeah.

Trip: 00:43:05

Uh, we'll see.

Trip: 00:43:05

We see, we'll see how sales do in like six months to a year.

Trip: 00:43:09

Um, write me something else.

Trip: 00:43:11

And there's a, this is very much like a very big drop off in the amount of

Trip: 00:43:15

focus that is, that is on the book.

Trip: 00:43:18

which is a little bit harder to navigate because it's like, I

Trip: 00:43:20

feel like it's much more abrupt than the process of book going.

Trip: 00:43:24

The point of the timeline where it's book going to printers.

Trip: 00:43:27

Yeah, that's that's not an ending.

Trip: 00:43:29

That's yeah That's a phase shift.

Trip: 00:43:32

That's not an ending but after publication day, that's much more like

Trip: 00:43:36

oh no this This project is more done.

Trip: 00:43:39

You're spending noticeably less time with these characters.

Trip: 00:43:42

Because, you know, in the run up to publication, we're talking about

Trip: 00:43:44

character, we're talking about setting, we're talking about the

Trip: 00:43:46

book and, and all of these things.

Trip: 00:43:49

So they are still very much there and very much present.

Trip: 00:43:52

But post publication day, there's a, there's a fall off.

Trip: 00:43:55

And yeah, I think that's a bit more, a bit more of the aww.

Tom: 00:43:58

Um, I've just got the last two questions, but it's been a

Tom: 00:44:01

fantastic time to chat with you, Trip.

Tom: 00:44:03

Thank you.

Tom: 00:44:04

Um, now it's my belief that writers continue to grow and develop their

Tom: 00:44:08

writing with every story that they write.

Tom: 00:44:11

You mentioned earlier how improving your writing was learning how you write.

Tom: 00:44:16

And optimizing your writing process around that.

Tom: 00:44:19

But was there anything in particular from the last project you finished that

Tom: 00:44:24

you're now applying to your projects that you're currently working on?

Trip: 00:44:28

I mean, the obvious answer that springs immediately to mind is

Trip: 00:44:32

don't write so out of order as I did on A Market of Dreams and Destiny.

Trip: 00:44:38

Get things in line more in advance.

Trip: 00:44:41

So even if there is some slight shifting, it's not literally, okay, I

Trip: 00:44:46

need to write a summary of everything that happens in every scene and put

Trip: 00:44:50

it on note cards, spread them all out on the floor in front of me, and then

Trip: 00:44:55

wiggle them all around until they fit back into a new order that functions

Trip: 00:45:00

with all the through lines for all the characters and the plot and everything.

Trip: 00:45:03

Okay, now I need to go remember and like trim all these

Trip: 00:45:05

other things out and do this.

Trip: 00:45:06

I've definitely learned that I have got to know, I have got to know the

Trip: 00:45:10

ending before I push past 25 percent or untangling it is going to be almost

Trip: 00:45:15

more of a trial than my soul could bear.

Trip: 00:45:20

But it's also an interesting question because I'm now sitting here and I

Trip: 00:45:23

am thinking back about things I have learned and it's occurring to me.

Trip: 00:45:27

I love science fiction fantasy conventions.

Trip: 00:45:30

I go to as many as I possibly can.

Trip: 00:45:32

I especially love BristolCon.

Trip: 00:45:34

I love FantasyCon.

Trip: 00:45:36

I love EasterCon.

Trip: 00:45:37

Um, I volunteered for the World Science Fiction Convention

Trip: 00:45:41

when I was here in Glasgow.

Trip: 00:45:42

I was on a lot of panels and quite often that does give you the opportunity

Trip: 00:45:48

to verbalize and vocalize and sort of think your way through aspects of your

Trip: 00:45:52

craft that you may not necessarily have formally thought through.

Trip: 00:45:59

And I have actually had some insights just talking on panels that I have then gone

Trip: 00:46:04

on to sort of like, Apply to my process.

Trip: 00:46:08

Um, I was on this fantastic panel at an Easter con at one point, and it

Trip: 00:46:11

was talking about cross genre works.

Trip: 00:46:14

And like how you write them, how you take these two genres and

Trip: 00:46:18

how do you mash them together.

Trip: 00:46:19

And just being on that panel and sort of bringing into clear focus,

Trip: 00:46:24

the image of how I thought about mashing up genres in my head.

Trip: 00:46:28

It formalized some things, and I'm like, now I actually actively use

Trip: 00:46:32

it when I'm plotting a, a work.

Trip: 00:46:35

Like, for example, on my Patreon, there's a novella called Apple Pies

Trip: 00:46:39

and Eldritch Skies, which is me sort of taking cosmic horror and cozy

Trip: 00:46:45

fantasy and linking them together.

Trip: 00:46:47

And I was specifically able to do that because of the thought process

Trip: 00:46:54

that occurred to me on this panel.

Trip: 00:46:57

It was very much like, okay, break it down.

Trip: 00:47:00

What are the Aspects of each of these genres?

Trip: 00:47:04

What, what makes them a genre?

Trip: 00:47:06

What is the pattern of storytelling that is formalized as a subgenre in this case?

Trip: 00:47:11

And there's not a lot of overlap between cozy fantasy and cosmic horror.

Tom: 00:47:14

No.

Trip: 00:47:16

but there's an idea that is central to cosmic horror, that it is

Trip: 00:47:20

terrifying to be such a tiny piece of something so unknowable and vast.

Trip: 00:47:27

And I was thinking, but that's the, that's the thing with cozy fantasy.

Trip: 00:47:30

It's all about being a tiny piece of something.

Trip: 00:47:33

It's about having this cozy, nice, tiny little nook.

Trip: 00:47:37

And I'm like, so Apple pies and Eldridge skies is overlapping

Trip: 00:47:41

those two little tiny pieces.

Trip: 00:47:44

We are keeping the vast and knowable cosmos, but we're linking that and

Trip: 00:47:50

overlapping it with that small piece so that we can then bring in that's

Trip: 00:47:54

actually comforting being just a small part in a vast and noble cosmos.

Trip: 00:47:59

I don't I don't have to fucking worry about killing the witch

Trip: 00:48:02

king like the world can burn down But reality will go on.

Trip: 00:48:07

Good will still exist.

Trip: 00:48:08

Light will still burn in innumerable stars.

Trip: 00:48:11

Like it's finding those pieces and those overlaps and I would absolutely not have

Trip: 00:48:16

been able to make that connection because it is a big leap if I hadn't had that

Trip: 00:48:20

experience on the panel of like air quotes forced by circumstance to vocalize

Trip: 00:48:26

my thoughts on this particular topic.

Trip: 00:48:28

Um, and I, I love apple pies and I'll just guys, it needs like more editing,

Trip: 00:48:32

more polishing, more editor work.

Trip: 00:48:34

Um, But it was just so much fun.

Trip: 00:48:37

It's so fascinating to write.

Trip: 00:48:38

Plus, like, I got to write a very small, very cute, very deadly character, which

Trip: 00:48:43

is one of my favorite things ever.

Tom: 00:48:44

That's amazing.

Tom: 00:48:45

And also I I want to second the amazingness that is author conventions

Tom: 00:48:50

in the UK, especially genre conventions where you have these panels and

Tom: 00:48:54

you have shared ideas, uh, it's always fascinating to listen to.

Trip: 00:48:58

100%.

Trip: 00:49:00

Um, I'm an American, I'm an expat.

Trip: 00:49:02

I have lived here in the UK for over 10 years now.

Trip: 00:49:05

And having experience of the convention scene in the United States and the

Trip: 00:49:10

convention scene in the United Kingdom, the United Kingdom is like such a

Trip: 00:49:15

sweet spot of the conventions are big enough to be interesting, but

Trip: 00:49:20

they're small enough to be personal.

Trip: 00:49:21

You can really develop a convention family, that like makes the experiences.

Trip: 00:49:27

Like, so incredibly rich while at the same time having very relaxed, down

Trip: 00:49:33

to earth contact with major figures in like the UK publishing industry.

Trip: 00:49:38

I cannot recommend the UK fantasy convention scene enough.

Trip: 00:49:42

If you are nearby and you can get to something like Easter Con,

Trip: 00:49:47

which moves around and I think the next one's going to be in Belfast.

Trip: 00:49:50

I highly recommend it.

Trip: 00:49:51

If you can come over, if you can afford to come over, if your

Trip: 00:49:54

life circumstances permit that.

Trip: 00:49:56

I can't recommend it enough.

Trip: 00:49:58

I've loved every single one.

Tom: 00:49:59

Yeah, absolutely.

Tom: 00:50:01

Uh, now just one final question.

Tom: 00:50:03

It should hopefully be a simple one.

Tom: 00:50:04

And in fact, because Dr.

Tom: 00:50:07

Tiffany Angus was your, uh, PhD supervisor, I may already get it.

Tom: 00:50:12

Is there one piece of advice you find yourself returning to

Tom: 00:50:17

gets you through your writing?

Trip: 00:50:19

So, It's not a piece of advice, so much as it is a Perspective.

Trip: 00:50:24

Or maybe even a mantra, if you want to call it a mantra.

Trip: 00:50:28

The one thing that gets me through writing more than absolutely anything

Trip: 00:50:31

else is saying to myself, fix it in post.

Trip: 00:50:35

Fix it later.

Trip: 00:50:37

Yeah.

Trip: 00:50:37

Um, and the thing, and it is very, it's very close to being what Tiffany would

Trip: 00:50:41

say is you can't edit a blank page.

Tom: 00:50:43

Exactly.

Trip: 00:50:43

Yeah.

Trip: 00:50:44

I think of it as.

Trip: 00:50:45

You can't edit a blank page.

Trip: 00:50:47

Tiffany says, what does she say?

Trip: 00:50:49

She says, I can edit shit on the page.

Trip: 00:50:51

I can't edit shit in your head.

Trip: 00:50:52

So write it down.

Tom: 00:50:53

Yeah.

Tom: 00:50:54

I think actually in her interview, she did actually say you can't edit an empty page.

Tom: 00:50:58

That was the words I was thinking.

Tom: 00:51:00

So, um, great.

Tom: 00:51:02

Well, Tripp, it's been genuinely fantastic.

Tom: 00:51:05

I really enjoyed you as a guest.

Tom: 00:51:06

Uh, thank you so much for being on the show.

Trip: 00:51:09

Thank you.

Trip: 00:51:10

Thanks for having me.

Trip: 00:51:10

I had a absolutely fantastic time, honestly.

Tom: 00:51:14

And that was Trip Galey, what a wonderful man.

Tom: 00:51:17

His website is simply tripgaley.

Tom: 00:51:19

com get links to all of his stuff there.

Tom: 00:51:22

And I do recommend his Patreon so that you can catch up with his

Tom: 00:51:25

latest book, A Game Beyond Death.

Tom: 00:51:27

It's really good.

Tom: 00:51:28

As of this episode being released, there are nine chapters out.

Tom: 00:51:31

So, uh, you get that, and if frequent chapters being released,

Tom: 00:51:36

you also get short stories and his newsletter and stuff.

Tom: 00:51:39

It's about five pounds a month, but I think there's a free option as well.

Tom: 00:51:42

So it's all very good.

Tom: 00:51:44

Recommended.

Tom: 00:51:45

As for me, I do want to give you guys notice that I do plan on attending

Tom: 00:51:49

several author conventions this year, if my health behaves itself.

Tom: 00:51:52

I'll give more details as I'm confirmed, but really hoping to

Tom: 00:51:56

meet some of you and catching up with previous guests on the show.

Tom: 00:51:59

Hopefully meet some future guests too.

Tom: 00:52:01

Anyway, that's all for this month.

Tom: 00:52:03

See you in February.

Tom: 00:52:04

And for goodness sake, keep writing until the world ends.