Episode 507

full
Published on:

1st Jan 2025

The Real Writing Process of Donal Ryan

Tom Pepperdine interviews multi-award winning author, Donal Ryan, about his writing process. Donal discusses how it felt revisiting old characters for his latest novel, what techniques he uses to progress the story, and the benefits of unplugging and enjoying life.

You can buy Donal's most recent award-winning novel here: https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/436371/heart-be-at-peace-by-ryan-donal/9780857525239

And you can find more information about this podcast on the following links:

https://bsky.app/profile/realwritingpro.bsky.social

https://www.threads.net/@realwritingpro

https://www.instagram.com/realwritingpro

Transcript
Tom:

Hello and welcome to The Real Writing Process, the show that finds

Tom:

out how authors do exactly what they do.

Tom:

I'm your host Tom Pepperdine, and this week my guest is a

Tom:

multi award winning powerhouse.

Tom:

He's won six Irish Book Awards and won Irish Book of the Decade in 2016.

Tom:

He's also won the Guardian First Book Award and won the European

Tom:

Union Prize for Literature for his debut novel, The Spinning Heart.

Tom:

And he's also been longlisted for the Man Booker twice!

Tom:

So basically, he's quite good.

Tom:

But more importantly, I like his work, which is why he's on the show.

Tom:

He also teaches creative writing, so he's very happy to discuss the writing process.

Tom:

This man is Donal Ryan.

Tom:

Now, Donald Ryan is a great guest and a fantastic way to end the

Tom:

year, but I do need to apologize for the shortness of the episode.

Tom:

The thing is I love Donald Ryan's writing so much that I fanboyed quite a bit.

Tom:

I, Also opened up to him about how his writing affected me on a personal level.

Tom:

We bonded, it was fantastic, but it was absolutely cringeworthy to listen

Tom:

back to while I edited this episode.

Tom:

That was information for me and him, not for you, I'm sorry to say.

Tom:

You're here to listen to writers discuss how they write, not how their

Tom:

writing helped me process my trauma.

Tom:

That's not the show.

Tom:

Uh, so thankfully I've edited all that out.

Tom:

Unfortunately, it means the interview is only 30 minutes long.

Tom:

Thankfully though, Donal is a very intelligent man who can impart

Tom:

all the relevant information very succinctly, so you get twice as

Tom:

much knowledge in half the time.

Tom:

That's why the man is an award winning genius.

Tom:

Anyway, uh, suffice to say, we've got a short episode,

Tom:

but it's the end of the year.

Tom:

You're really busy.

Tom:

So let's do a jingle and get straight to it.

Tom:

Here we go.

Tom:

And this week I'm here with Donald Ryan.

Tom:

Donald, hello.

Tom:

Hi Tom, how are you doing?

Tom:

I'm very well, thank you.

Tom:

My first question, as always, is what are we drinking?

Donal:

Well, I'm drinking coffee.

Donal:

Nice Bewley's Rich Roast.

Tom:

Are you black, black coffee?

Tom:

Milk?

Donal:

Yeah, black usually, yeah.

Donal:

Sometimes maybe a little bit of milk.

Donal:

I'm in kind of one of those softer moods.

Donal:

Um, I tend to judge my coffee on its strength and so if it hasn't got like the

Donal:

five beans on the package, I won't buy it.

Tom:

Okay, yeah, I'm very much a dark roast guy.

Tom:

So yeah, also a black coffee.

Tom:

and is that your writing drink?

Tom:

Is that your fuel for the day?

Donal:

Yeah, I can't really start.

Donal:

I can't do anything really until I've had coffee.

Donal:

I know it's a cliche.

Donal:

People always say it like don't come near me, but God, I can't imagine

Donal:

starting a day without coffee.

Donal:

And you know, the odd time you're stranded somewhere really

Donal:

strange and you can't get coffee.

Donal:

It's just the feeling of panic is incredible.

Tom:

Yeah, no, I, I'm fortunate to live in a city, but, uh, yes, I can imagine,

Tom:

I wouldn't want to be in that situation.

Tom:

And, uh, where I'm speaking to you now, is this your office?

Tom:

Is this where you do your writing?

Donal:

Yeah, this is our converted attic.

Donal:

When COVID struck first, I was working at home and teaching from home and

Donal:

also now and again broadcasting from home and my wife started to get very

Donal:

embarrassed by the boxes of Christmas decorations and open rafters behind me.

Donal:

She insisted we get the attic converted into an office.

Tom:

Nice.

Tom:

And so that's been about sort of three or four years you've been writing there.

Donal:

Yeah, pretty much, yeah.

Donal:

But I always, yeah, I do tend to write at home a lot because,

Donal:

well, I have no choice really.

Donal:

I have nowhere else to do it except in work, my office in Newell.

Donal:

So it's nice to have a nice comfortable space that's kind of

Donal:

bespoke and designed around me.

Tom:

Yes.

Tom:

And are you someone who needs the quiet?

Tom:

Do you have music on in the background?

Tom:

Is noise useful or is it a hindrance?

Donal:

No, it's a real hindrance.

Donal:

I actually, I can't, I can't bear it.

Donal:

I tried to have a place as silent as possible.

Donal:

But, you know, kind of the ambient noise of life is fine.

Donal:

You know, like there's buildings built near us, and you're going to have banging

Donal:

and crashing and in the house, you know, doors opening and closing and people

Donal:

walking around, but somebody making kind of concerted focus noise in my direction,

Donal:

it kind of does make me a bit upset.

Donal:

All right.

Donal:

So, um, and I've heard of writers actually who, who like to play music as

Donal:

they, as they write, but I find it seeps in too much into, into the sentences.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

You don't want to suddenly writing the lyrics.

Tom:

Yeah.

Donal:

It's happened.

Donal:

I wrote a whole line from the Pogue's song, the Broad Majestic

Donal:

Shannon once into a short story.

Donal:

And I was going, gosh, it's a lovely, but very familiar sentence.

Donal:

I mean, I just said it.

Tom:

And so with your latest book, if we talk about Heart Be

Tom:

At Peace, which is revisiting the characters from The Spinning Heart.

Tom:

What was the main motivation on writing this book and having this book now?

Donal:

Well, it sounds a little bit juvenile, but my mom told me to do it.

Donal:

And so I had no choice really.

Donal:

She passed away last year, but she, my mom worked in Tesco's and, you

Donal:

know, and on her till for years and years, they would queue at her till

Donal:

to ask her how the characters in the Spinning Heart were getting on.

Donal:

Because, and that was very affirming for me as a writer because it

Donal:

did speak to these people's connection with the characters and

Donal:

how they saw them as real people.

Donal:

But people would actually say, and how's Bobby getting on?

Donal:

You know, and she, and she was trying to concoct kind of stories, to get people

Donal:

because they seemed genuinely worried.

Donal:

So she kept saying, would you not please just write a sequel?

Tom:

And how was it revisiting those characters 10 years on, was

Tom:

it quite an easy creating the story and where everyone was, or

Tom:

was it actually quite a challenge?

Donal:

No, it was very easy, I must say.

Donal:

It did feel as though I had just tuned a radio to a particular

Donal:

frequency and listened to it.

Donal:

You know, and so the only effort really was kind of getting into the same groove

Donal:

I was in 15 years ago when I wrote Spinning Heart, and that didn't take long.

Donal:

And once I was there and characters had presented themselves clearly in

Donal:

my imagination again, they started to speak and it was just a matter almost

Donal:

of transcribing what they were saying.

Donal:

So it was great, very easy.

Donal:

I must say there was no suffering from my art at all with this

Donal:

novel, it came out very easily.

Tom:

And, uh, the structure of it.

Tom:

Obviously, it's 21 characters.

Tom:

Each having a dedicated chapter as the loose story progresses.

Tom:

The events happening in the village.

Tom:

And it's exactly the same order as the first book.

Tom:

Was that just an easy device to do it, or was it a challenge to shape

Tom:

the story knowing that you had that order already stuck in place?

Donal:

No, I found it a great help actually.

Donal:

Because I do tend to get very tied up in knots when it comes to structure and form.

Donal:

And so to have that already worked out was a great boon, I must say.

Donal:

And you know, um, afforded me an awful lot of creative space that

Donal:

I wouldn't have had otherwise.

Donal:

And also there were two things I wanted to do when I started to write the sequel

Donal:

or this companion piece, I should call it because I'm not supposed to say sequel.

Donal:

One was, I wanted to write Spinning Heart again.

Donal:

And the other one was, I wanted to write a book that was completely

Donal:

different to Spinning Heart.

Donal:

So I knew different things had to happen.

Donal:

I couldn't go back over the same old ground.

Donal:

And also, I mean, Ireland is a changed place.

Donal:

The village where the people live is a changed place.

Donal:

But they have the same kinds of concerns.

Donal:

So I'd say the best thing to do is to just describe the character's lives as they are

Donal:

now, 10 years on from the Spinning Heart.

Donal:

And because I was writing in a certain milieu and in a certain place, you

Donal:

know, the issues that, that, um, occupy the characters are unavoidable.

Donal:

As was the case with Spinning Heart, where, you know, the fact

Donal:

that we were in this massive Post Boom, Quagmire, um, really had to

Donal:

be, had to be a strong feature.

Donal:

Had to be at least, you know, a very vivid backdrop, or, or, the propelling

Donal:

element of the character's lives.

Donal:

So there was no effort again, but, you know, I was careful to not just rehash

Donal:

the same old ground, but they are the same voices, and they're very familiar,

Donal:

and they gave me great comfort actually.

Tom:

Good.

Tom:

That's great.

Tom:

Like you say, it was a companion piece to your debut novel and you've written quite

Tom:

a few novels uh, in the interim period, as well as teaching creative writing.

Donal:

Yeah.

Tom:

So when revisiting those characters, does it feel that your writing style

Tom:

and your approaching to writing sessions has changed a lot in those 15 years.

Tom:

And can you think of specific examples of how it's changed?

Donal:

I don't think it's changed very much actually because when I think back to

Donal:

how I wrote my first two novels, the thing about December and Spinning Heart, I had

Donal:

a very involved full time job at the time.

Donal:

And Marie was for the first book she was pregnant and for the second book we

Donal:

had a baby and a second baby on the way.

Donal:

And it was just kind of a crazy time to embark on this

Donal:

new phase of my writing life.

Donal:

To start to write novels seriously at that time because I had, I had

Donal:

so much time and space and so few obligations and pressures before that.

Donal:

and I tended to write in very short, intense bursts, and to

Donal:

write first drafts very quickly.

Donal:

And that system has never really changed.

Donal:

It worked so well for those first two novels.

Donal:

I thought, well, why go messing with this?

Donal:

You know, why overthink it?

Donal:

If this method . the one that leads me to be able to write the novels most easily,

Donal:

I won't, I won't go messing with it.

Donal:

So I've kind of always written in the same general area and in the same way.

Donal:

I tend, you know, to have a fairly high word count for a day's writing.

Donal:

And I might write for months and months at a time, but when I am involved

Donal:

in a project, it will occupy most of my working days where possible.

Tom:

And you said earlier how structure can be quite difficult for you.

Tom:

When going into a new project, do you have a very clear idea

Tom:

of where it's going to end?

Tom:

Or is it just sort of like start and kind of figure it out as you go?

Donal:

I do actually, yeah.

Donal:

I remember reading in On Writing by Stephen King years ago that he would

Donal:

always have an end point in mind.

Donal:

He might even have written closing scene and he said, this

Donal:

might change during the writing.

Donal:

But to have that point towards which you work, I think is really important.

Donal:

So you're not writing into a vast infinity of possibility.

Donal:

You know, there is that point.

Donal:

And so it does feel like a linear journey almost, you know, you're

Donal:

heading towards this point.

Donal:

And so all of the events that you describe have to in some way

Donal:

lead towards this culmination.

Donal:

And it gives me great relief when I have, when I finally strike on

Donal:

how a story or a novel will end, I feel such incredible relief.

Donal:

And I do, generally, you know, I've been, I've been very lucky so far that

Donal:

they seem to have come fully formed into my imagination at an early point.

Donal:

So I'll have a broad idea of what kind of book I want to write.

Donal:

But when the ending comes into mind, everything else seems to

Donal:

crystallize, seems to take a very definite shape, which is great.

Donal:

So I think, I think it's a good idea to have at least a vague

Donal:

idea of where you're heading for.

Tom:

Absolutely.

Tom:

And certainly with the, the spinning heart, when that first came out,

Tom:

you'd mentioned how your own travels had informed some of the

Tom:

characters, uh, because you have characters from different countries.

Tom:

And had that financial economy, collapse background.

Donal:

Yeah.

Tom:

Was there much that you had to research for accuracy?

Tom:

Because although it's the same characters, dealing with the time difference and

Tom:

how people acclimatize, you know, sort of as immigrants into the country.

Tom:

Was there sort of further research that you did with the people that you could

Tom:

reach out to about their life experience, to check that that was authentic?

Donal:

No, for Spinning Heart, I had to do no research.

Donal:

Because it was done.

Donal:

You know, I've been doing it for years, really.

Tom:

It was just unconscious?

Donal:

Absolutely.

Donal:

I mean, I was , I was able to talk the talk because I walked the walk, you know.

Donal:

I worked in the same places as the guys who work for Pokey

Donal:

Burke worked, you know,=.

Donal:

And, and I'm from the Irish rural working class and almost all of the characters

Donal:

are Irish rural working class people.

Donal:

And we're very, very broad and very large cohort of population.

Donal:

But not very often considered, you know.

Donal:

And people tend to conflate working class and urban contexts.

Donal:

The rural working class are kind of a helpless and forgotten people.

Tom:

Yeah.

Donal:

So it was no bother, you know, and the voices of the people, all of

Donal:

their elocutions and their demotic voices were very clear in my head because

Donal:

it was my own voice and the voices of my family and friends and loved ones.

Donal:

And I was very proud of that.

Donal:

I remember one of my first US reviews when the book came out in America was,

Donal:

um, it wasn't intended apparently for Huffington Post, but the, the review

Donal:

was so bad that the Huff Post pulled it.

Tom:

Oh, wow.

Donal:

The reviewer.

Donal:

Yeah.

Donal:

And the, so, but the reviewer went ahead and published her review on her blog.

Donal:

And she, her opening line was The Spinning Heart is the worst book

Donal:

ever written, which is, you know, a fine hyperbolic opening line.

Donal:

And she went on to elucidate her, her theory for seven paragraphs.

Donal:

But she closed by saying, Oh, I'm so sick of hearing people praise this guy, Donal

Donal:

Ryan, for his use of demotic language, because all he's doing is Is using

Donal:

the slang and grit of his own people.

Donal:

Now, she intended it as a denigratory expression, but

Donal:

for me, I was so proud of that.

Donal:

You know, I really was, because she was exactly right.

Donal:

I was using the slang and grit of my own people.

Donal:

And I was very proud of the fact that I had gotten it right, you know, because

Donal:

it can be very hard to reproduce ordinary locutions on the page.

Donal:

You know, it's so easy to tip into cliche and so called petty wackery.

Donal:

And I, I know that I didn't.

Donal:

I mean, that accusation would be leveled no matter what, but I know I didn't.

Donal:

So I'm very proud of that.

Donal:

Yeah.

Tom:

Well, I think with any art form, you want a emotional response

Tom:

and a strong, bad reaction is as good as a strong positive reaction

Tom:

because they had a reaction to it.

Tom:

It's ambivalence.

Tom:

I think it's the worst Reaction.

Tom:

I'm just like, yeah, it's fine.

Tom:

Okay, I want to, sort of, uh, talk about, you said that you

Tom:

had, you know, an ending in mind.

Tom:

When you have a writing session, do you, you know, having full time work,

Tom:

are you someone who writes before work, after work, on the weekend, how

Tom:

do you structure it when you write?

Donal:

Well, I'm not sure if this is common across academia, cause

Donal:

I'm not an academic by training or even by inclination to be honest.

Donal:

But I do love teaching creative writing.

Donal:

But I'm not, I don't teach it in a very academic way.

Donal:

So I don't intellectualize.

Donal:

But in academia, you are given one, One day a week is meant to

Donal:

be dedicated to your own research, and my research is writing fiction.

Donal:

So I have that one day in the working week during the semester,

Donal:

and then in the summer, time opens up a little bit for academics.

Donal:

Now, the summer is still a very busy time.

Donal:

There's like, people always go, oh, so you're off for summer

Donal:

now because you're working at university, but it can be more busy.

Donal:

But we have fewer student meetings and fewer lectures to give in the summer, so

Donal:

I have more days in the week to write.

Donal:

But I do tend still to write in the early morning because I just

Donal:

find a slightly more fertile time.

Donal:

I heard Kevin Barry say that he writes before he's even had coffee, while he's

Donal:

likely in the kind of liminal space between full wakefulness and sleep.

Donal:

And he can still tap into the chaotic movement of his unconscious.

Tom:

Yes.

Donal:

And I do believe that, there's something in that for sure.

Donal:

So, but I do have coffee first because I just can't, I can't function to do

Donal:

that, but I do, and I don't eat, I usually write a little bit hungry, you

Donal:

know, I haven't, I wouldn't have eaten.

Donal:

You can think you're pleased and satisfied and lazy when you've

Donal:

eaten a big meal, I think.

Tom:

I think it's also first thing in the morning.

Tom:

Yes.

Tom:

There's that sort of chaotic brain, but it's also less self consciousness.

Tom:

It is that stream of consciousness.

Tom:

You're not overanalyzing it.

Tom:

You're just letting it flow.

Donal:

That's it.

Donal:

Absolutely.

Donal:

Yeah.

Tom:

So, yeah, I think that there is definitely something to be said to

Tom:

don't fully wake up before doing it.

Tom:

Um, and you said that you have fairly large, sort of word

Tom:

counts, uh, when you write.

Tom:

Do you write for a certain number of hours, or is there a

Tom:

word count target that you have?

Donal:

Yes, I think the word count target is much healthier because if

Donal:

you say to yourself, I'm going to write for three hours, you can spend three

Donal:

hours listening to CDs, reading books, um, looking at shite on the internet.

Donal:

And you will, you will waste huge swathes of the three hours.

Donal:

So I generally say to myself I'll be finished when I've

Donal:

written a thousand words.

Donal:

Now, I do think that 500 words is a great number to aim for.

Donal:

And if you say 500, you will generally get to about a thousand, you know.

Donal:

But if you say to yourself, my day's work as a writer would

Donal:

be 500 usable words of prose.

Donal:

And when you achieve that, everything is a bonus, you know.

Donal:

And you can still stop at 500 and think, well, my day's work is done

Donal:

and really happy that you've done it.

Donal:

And it's because it's such a relief when you, when you make

Donal:

any bit of progress on any work.

Donal:

You know yourself, no matter what art form it is, when you make progress

Donal:

towards the end, towards the beginning, it's just a huge and lovely feeling.

Donal:

I mean, Ellen Rice says 300 words is a really good day's work.

Donal:

Writing a novel, she will write 300 words, and that's a good paragraph, you know.

Donal:

But she says she might write a few thousand to get to that

Donal:

300 words of pristine prose.

Donal:

But I also heard, um, the great Jennifer Johnston once said, Speaking to John

Donal:

Manville on stage and somebody asked in the Q& A, so what do you think

Donal:

is a good day's work as a writer?

Donal:

And Jennifer said, I think 500 words is a great day's work.

Donal:

And John said, I might delete a comma and consider that to be a good day's work.

Donal:

Yeah.

Donal:

And Jennifer said, Oh, don't mind him.

Donal:

He's just being precious.

Donal:

And Manville said, Boy, I have won the Booker and Jennifer's

Donal:

merely been nominated.

Donal:

Now he was only joking.

Donal:

He's really like, it was, that's so funny.

Donal:

She was like, Oh, don't mind him.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

It's As long as the story progresses, whether that's

Tom:

in your mind or on the page.

Donal:

That's it.

Donal:

Exactly.

Donal:

Yeah.

Donal:

Absolutely.

Donal:

Yep.

Donal:

Yep.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

And with, um, the end of the session, are you someone who,

Tom:

let's finish that paragraph?

Tom:

Let's try and finish, you know, a rough draft of this chapter.

Tom:

Or is it just like, No, that's a thousand words on the dot.

Tom:

It's mid sentence.

Tom:

I can't be arsed to leave a comma or a full stop, I'm going.

Tom:

How, how does it tend to, to end?

Donal:

Oh yeah.

Donal:

I, I, I tend like there to be some kind of resolution to the writing session.

Donal:

Maybe this is why I tend to always write short chapters and to write

Donal:

in kind of little episodic bursts.

Donal:

Because I do like each unit of narrative to be resolved.

Donal:

And I don't like to leave things hanging, you know, because I, if I have an

Donal:

idea, I like to to sublimate the idea into language as quickly as possible.

Donal:

Because I know I lose it.

Donal:

I make notes all the time and the notes are incomprehensible afterwards.

Donal:

I don't know what I was talking about or what I was thinking.

Donal:

I'm thinking, oh, I'll make a, I'll do a very short precis, great idea.

Donal:

You know, three or four words, and the words just exist as disparate

Donal:

words with no meaning together.

Donal:

It's terrible.

Donal:

So I tend to try to get the idea worked out fairly quickly.

Donal:

And so that might mean that, you know, my 500 words might grow into a

Donal:

thousand or two thousands, you know.

Donal:

And I have written up to 5, 000 in a day, but mostly after the first

Donal:

thousand, you're just kind of, um, you're pushing it, overdoing it.

Tom:

And when you start the next writing session, how far do you read back and just

Tom:

sort of remind yourself where you were?

Donal:

Yeah.

Donal:

I just, I would glance back probably, probably to the previous chapter,

Donal:

maybe, or if I have left it mid chapter to start at that chapter.

Donal:

And I consult my kind of my newest outline plan that I will have made it

Donal:

to start, you know, to inform myself of where I should be going next.

Donal:

Um, and I used to have a great system where I'd write

Donal:

fairly early in the morning.

Donal:

In my office in UL before we converted the office here.

Donal:

And it's about a three mile walk from my house to my office, so it's a good walk.

Donal:

Nice walk through the suburbs and through the playing fields in UL.

Donal:

And I would think during the three mile walk about what my day's work would

Donal:

look like and exactly what I had to do.

Donal:

And it worked out really well in my head before I started.

Donal:

It was great.

Donal:

And I always kind of, I meant to get back to that, you know, to go for

Donal:

a jog or a walk before I started.

Donal:

It never really did.

Donal:

I'm just playing again.

Tom:

Yeah, I actually had a writer on who was also a psychologist.

Tom:

So I was actually able to verify something that I'd been

Tom:

told before about alpha waves.

Tom:

And it's the the problem solving aspect of the brain that when you're doing

Tom:

a repetitive task, which can be, you know, walking to the office or having

Tom:

a shower or doing the, the laundry or the washing up .Something, something

Tom:

that your hands know where they're going and you don't really need to

Tom:

concentrate on every little detail.

Tom:

The problem solving part of your brain starts saying, right, well,

Tom:

we know what we're doing right now.

Tom:

It's not big mentally processing task.

Tom:

So, what was that thing that that other thing that we needed to resolve?

Tom:

And that's why people get ideas in the shower, walking

Tom:

the dog, driving in the car.

Donal:

oh, that's very interesting.

Donal:

That's great.

Donal:

I meant to look this up.

Donal:

I, I was thinking it must be hard science behind this.

Donal:

Because I found that if I go on a run, I tend to run either

Donal:

five or 10 miles at a time.

Donal:

And 5 mile run, I might have an idea, but on a 10 mile run, I can solve a problem.

Tom:

Yeah.

Donal:

Completely.

Donal:

It's amazing and the solution, I will never force a solution, it

Donal:

will just occur to me on the run.

Donal:

I remember, I heard Mo Farah saying that when he goes to train, he said,

Donal:

um, I don't think about training, my legs know what they have to do.

Donal:

So he's on the track and his legs know.

Donal:

And he said he could actually just exist inside his head while his legs are looking

Donal:

around the track and he can get rid of all his problems and do all his thinking.

Tom:

Yeah, I think there's so much noise in the world nowadays.

Tom:

You see people when they're on public transport and they've got

Tom:

their headphones in that, you know, they're playing games on their phone

Tom:

and there's a constant consuming.

Donal:

Yes.

Tom:

You know, and you know, it's filling the noise.

Donal:

Yeah.

Tom:

So your brain doesn't have time to process stuff.

Tom:

And so, uh, it's a terrible phrase, but it's, um, quite funny, this fad

Tom:

that I've heard that Gen Z are now doing called raw dogging flights, which is

Tom:

going on a flight and it's not having any music, looking at your phone.

Tom:

And it's just like a form of meditation of just sitting on a

Tom:

flight and doing nothing, not using the entertainment system and just

Tom:

allowing the brain to process.

Donal:

That's brilliant.

Donal:

I always do that.

Donal:

I can never understand people who have to watch movies during a flight and

Donal:

have movies downloaded to their phone.

Donal:

It's such an opportunity to be quiet and not to have to speak and just to

Donal:

be passive and to be able to think.

Donal:

But it's called raw dogging.

Donal:

Raw dogging.

Donal:

I mean, I can't imagine going home to my wife saying I was out raw dogging.

Donal:

Oh, I had a great raw dogging session.

Tom:

Yeah, exactly.

Tom:

But it's just something I heard recently.

Donal:

That's funny, I heard Alistair Campbell say this, actually, yeah,

Donal:

about the happiness quotient and how it increases exponentially when you plug out.

Donal:

And he's visiting primary schools and talking to kids about

Donal:

this all the time, you know.

Donal:

And he says, they actually know, they will agree, you know.

Donal:

They'll debate it and they would agree that we actually, yes, I am

Donal:

much happier when I'm not on my phone and talking to my friend and

Donal:

doing something else, I'm happier.

Donal:

It's terrible thing, you know, it's terrible.

Donal:

It's, and it feels as though it's been foisted on our, on society and then

Donal:

our kids by these huge corporations.

Donal:

And this is just the way it is now.

Donal:

This is your life.

Donal:

Now, this is how society functions now, you know.

Tom:

Well, I think it's, for me, it's like An elastic band that's been like

Tom:

sort of stretch and bouncing back.

Tom:

That there's all this novelty of Oh, here's a new thing.

Tom:

Here's a new thing.

Tom:

Here's a new thing.

Tom:

And then it becomes the standard.

Tom:

And then it becomes like, well, why have I got this thing?

Donal:

Yeah.

Donal:

It does feel like, yeah, exactly.

Donal:

It feels like Caesar's bread and circus and said, Oh, just like an

Donal:

idiot and we can do whatever we want.

Tom:

Yes.

Tom:

And I think with, uh, certainly global politics, you can see something,

Tom:

Oh, we weren't paying attention.

Tom:

And now these things have happened.

Tom:

So, uh, yeah, when I speak to younger people, I'm far more hopeful than I was.

Tom:

They seem a lot more aware of the dangers than I was.

Tom:

Um, now, I'm gonna go, uh, sort of talk a bit more about your editing now.

Donal:

Okay.

Tom:

Because there's the old adage that writing is rewriting.

Tom:

How do you go about your second draft and moving forward?

Tom:

Do you read the whole thing through and make notes and then

Tom:

try and write a whole new draft?

Tom:

Or is it constantly reworking scenes and chapters?

Donal:

Yeah.

Donal:

Pretty much constantly working and actually, um, I, I'm very lucky in

Donal:

that, I have a resident beta reader who was very skilled, my wife.

Donal:

And it just happens that this is a skill she possesses.

Donal:

And I don't think she knew about it until I decided to to write seriously.

Donal:

and she started to read pretty much as I wrote.

Donal:

And she would give me her impressions.

Donal:

Um, and it's so important to me and I kind of, I do tend to fashion

Donal:

my, writing activities towards her approvals, which really works.

Donal:

Now, it doesn't sound as though it might necessarily be a healthy way of

Donal:

approaching it, but it really works.

Donal:

She is my first reader and she's the only reader, I think, if I can

Donal:

impress her, I can impress anybody.

Donal:

She's not very easily impressed.

Donal:

So I have to really I have to be almost on top of my game.

Donal:

I have to always make sure the language is singing and the words

Donal:

are right and the story is right.

Donal:

And she will give me guidance.

Donal:

You know, sometimes generally I get it right.

Donal:

But if it's not right for her, it's not right for me.

Donal:

It's not going into the world.

Donal:

And so I do tend to write and rewrite and tweak.

Donal:

I will write a chapter or a scene and I won't move on

Donal:

until I think I have it right.

Donal:

Um, and then when I have a full draft of a novel, it goes to my publisher and editor.

Donal:

And it is this terrible gulf of time when I'm waiting for their reaction.

Donal:

And it's not always, I mean, you're not always going to get it.

Donal:

Your desired reaction is their breathless approval.

Donal:

their astonishments.

Donal:

Yeah.

Donal:

Them going, It's just perfect, sweet.

Donal:

Yeah.

Donal:

No more change of word, like there are no notes, you know,

Donal:

it's never going to happen.

Donal:

Um, and so it can, it can almost feel like a rejection when you Send

Donal:

a manuscript away and you get back a very qualified response, you know.

Donal:

And then and reams of notes and tweaks to every single sentence, pretty much.

Donal:

I just feel like, oh Jesus, it's like I have to do the whole

Donal:

fucking thing again, Christ.

Donal:

But that's something you have to do.

Donal:

You kind of have to do the whole thing again, you know, we have to make it right.

Donal:

Because it's so important that what you write is readable.

Donal:

Like it's, we all have artistic intentions.

Donal:

We all have notions about ourselves as artists.

Donal:

But I think what you produce has to be consumable in order for people

Donal:

to pay money for it, you know, and if I'm going to be part of this

Donal:

mercantile corporate machine, you know.

Donal:

And add something and add a product to this huge list of available

Donal:

products that I want people to buy, it has to be done a certain way.

Donal:

I have to consider the readers, because without readers, we

Donal:

have no oxygen as writers, we don't have any function, really.

Donal:

Making your work readable is very important.

Tom:

Absolutely, yeah.

Tom:

And with your editor, has it been the same editor all the way

Tom:

through, or how long have you?

Donal:

Yeah, but pretty much, um, like my first two books, um, were

Donal:

published by a very small, independent, very high quality publisher called

Donal:

the Lilliput Press in Dublin.

Donal:

So Anthony Farrell, who owns Lilliput, at the time, Sarah

Donal:

Davis Goff was an intern there.

Donal:

She's now become the publisher of Tram Press.

Donal:

So she's a publishing legend now.

Donal:

And, Daniel Caffrey, a colleague and board member of Lilliput, were my first editors.

Donal:

And they were fantastic, absolutely loved working with them.

Donal:

And then Brian Langan was the editor at Doubleday when I, uh, moved to

Donal:

Doubleday for my subsequent books.

Donal:

And Brian and I have been together ever since.

Donal:

We're friends now.

Donal:

So, and he's, but he's still my editor and I can't see anybody else ever

Donal:

being my editor, but you never know what's going to happen in the future.

Tom:

I think it's the unsung relationship in publishing that

Tom:

doesn't get talked about enough.

Tom:

Because you've got to have that trust as well.

Donal:

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Donal:

I've heard horror stories.

Donal:

I've heard people being almost traumatized, almost

Donal:

brutalized by the process.

Donal:

Not by the editor themselves, but by the actual process of being edited.

Donal:

Yeah.

Donal:

And they've been told like, you know, you did it this way, but you did it wrong.

Donal:

This is how you should have done it.

Donal:

And I think that younger writers who are embarking on their careers

Donal:

and have that that carrot dangling of a potential contract, you know,

Donal:

will take bad advice from agents and from editors sometimes, you know.

Donal:

And they'll think, well, if they say it, it has to be right.

Donal:

But if it feels really wrong, I don't do it.

Donal:

You know, I think there are sometimes some barriers you

Donal:

shouldn't allow to broken down.

Tom:

Yeah, uh, there's actually a writer who lives in

Tom:

Scotland, called Elizabeth May.

Tom:

And, uh, she's a fantasy author.

Tom:

And when she started, uh, her first books were young adult.

Tom:

You know, the YA fantasy genre is so big.

Tom:

But she had to compromise a lot on those books, um, because they

Tom:

were a bit, bit spicier, a bit more adult in her first draft.

Tom:

And they're like, no, no, no, you know, if you want this story, it has to be

Tom:

marketed towards the young adult audience.

Tom:

So you've got to take this out.

Tom:

You've got to take that out.

Tom:

And now I think with Sarah J Maas and, you know, spicy, uh,

Tom:

fantasy becoming all the rage now.

Donal:

Oh my God.

Donal:

Yeah, absolutely.

Donal:

Yeah.

Tom:

So she's gone back sort of, I think it's like 10, 15 years later and she's

Tom:

rewritten those books, and she's like, I'm far more established in my career.

Tom:

And these trilogy of books are now going to be released as the books

Tom:

that I always intended them to be.

Donal:

That's unusual.

Donal:

I'm so glad to hear that that happens.

Donal:

That's brilliant.

Donal:

That's brilliant.

Tom:

Yeah, I, um, I've often heard, Oh, if my editor moved from this

Tom:

imprint, I would move as well.

Tom:

I've, I've had authors say that before.

Tom:

Because editors can really get burnt out in the industry as well.

Tom:

You do hear horror stories about how much their workloads are.

Donal:

Oh, it's horrific.

Donal:

Yeah.

Tom:

But you know, it's one is not greater than the other.

Tom:

It's between, you know, it's that magic partnership that makes it.

Tom:

And I really think a writer and a good editor is that magic partnership.

Donal:

I'm sure.

Tom:

So, Is there anything that you would say about Brian specifically?

Tom:

You know, what makes a good editor for you?

Tom:

How should people edit your work?

Donal:

Well, I think Brian is excellent with language.

Donal:

He's also excellent with being completely non confrontational and

Donal:

non didactic when it comes to edits.

Donal:

Even when he's very, very entrenched in his position, you know?

Donal:

Yeah, we rarely have arguments because He is very, very politic

Donal:

in how he goes about his work.

Donal:

And it's very important.

Donal:

I mean, I suppose like we all have our artistic sensibilities and

Donal:

be quite fragile about our work.

Donal:

I think everyone is the same, to be honest.

Donal:

I don't think anyone's very robust about their work.

Donal:

We all will take it personally and be very invested emotionally

Donal:

in what we produce creatively.

Donal:

And so It does really require a very sensitive approach, I think,

Donal:

from editors, you know, and I think mine is really nailed that.

Donal:

And we're good pals, you know, I mean, I'm not sure if it's the best idea to be good

Donal:

pals as editor and writer, but we are, and it just happens to be the way it is.

Tom:

Yeah, I definitely think there needs to be trust.

Tom:

And I think you've got to have that mutual respect.

Tom:

And I think the friendship can work because if the editor understands

Tom:

your voice and intent, then they're not trying to rewrite your work.

Tom:

They're trying to make it the best execution of your own idea.

Tom:

And if they know who you are and what your, you know, outlook on life is,

Tom:

what your You know, political persuasion is, you know, sort of like your view of

Tom:

the world, then they can help nudge you to say, is that really what you meant?

Donal:

Yeah, yeah.

Tom:

So, yeah, no, I think friends can, but, you know,

Tom:

like I say, I'm not a writer.

Tom:

It's just well observed over, over a few years.

Tom:

a few things that I just want to sort of round off with.

Tom:

Um, Finishing a project.

Tom:

Obviously, you know, heart, be at peace is a companion piece.

Tom:

But when you finished a project, is it a sense of relief of, ah,

Tom:

done, sign off, go to the printers.

Tom:

Or because you've got all these really developed characters that

Tom:

you've spent a long time with.

Tom:

Is there an element of grief that, oh, I'm not going to hang out with these

Tom:

people for a length of time anymore?

Donal:

Oh, God, there really is, Tom.

Donal:

And it sounds crazy, but it does absolutely happen.

Donal:

And actually, I just finished a novel, which would be hopefully

Donal:

my next published novel.

Donal:

And I finished a few weeks ago, and the character is a character from an

Donal:

earlier book called Mary Crothery.

Donal:

She's a young Irish traveler woman.

Donal:

And I was so fond of her in her first iteration.

Donal:

And this book is about Mary.

Donal:

And I absolutely fell back madly head over heels in love with her again.

Donal:

And I loved her voice.

Donal:

And I could picture her so clearly.

Donal:

And I loved everything about her.

Donal:

And she just was like a really close friend for the last year.

Donal:

And I really was almost distraught when I finished.

Donal:

Thinking, yeah, well, I just, when I keep writing, when I make it a

Donal:

longer book or when I just, when I write a sequel straight away?

Donal:

But yeah, it definitely happens.

Donal:

And sometimes you're glad to be out of it.

Donal:

I mean, my first novel, when I finished, I was so relieved because I did love the

Donal:

character, but he has a terribly tragic life and ending and I wanted to wash

Donal:

my hands of the awful thing I'd done by giving him this, this terrible pain.

Donal:

And so I was relieved to be done with it, but I still

Donal:

think it was an important book.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

And do you have any rituals, once you finished a book and you've had the

Tom:

proof signed off, is it, you know, sort of straight onto the next thing?

Tom:

Or is it like, no, I'm going to get a glass of my favorite, you know, drink

Tom:

or, you know, I'm going to go on holiday or what do you do once it's all done?

Donal:

Well, like a typical Irish writer, I have my favorite

Donal:

drink most nights anyways.

Donal:

But I do, I do tend to, um, I climb a local mountain called, well, It's

Donal:

called, it's Keeper Hill, it's more of a hill than a mountain really, but it's

Donal:

um, it's in the Silvermines Mountains, and there's a lovely walking trail from

Donal:

the village of Newport to the summit.

Donal:

And so I just drive to the trailhead and walk to the summit.

Donal:

And there's a lovely um, like most hilltops, there's a little cairn of

Donal:

stones, and people place stones for loved ones, and there's plaques up there, so

Donal:

I place a stone for my deceased loved ones, after finishing a manuscript, and

Donal:

it's lovely, it's just a nice ritual.

Tom:

Nice.

Tom:

And, uh, I've got just my final two questions.

Tom:

It's my belief that writers continue to grow and develop their writing

Tom:

with every story that they write.

Tom:

Was there anything particular that you learnt from your last project that you

Tom:

think you'd apply to your next one?

Donal:

Yeah, I think it's you can inhabit the same characters again.

Donal:

You know, I was nervous about it, though.

Donal:

I mean, loads of my characters cross over from story to story and

Donal:

novel to novel, but they rarely have the same exact weight, you know.

Donal:

So for this book, each each character had the same speaking time, basically.

Donal:

And contributed roughly the same amount to the story.

Donal:

And I think it's a good thing.

Donal:

You know, reprising those characters, it was I can do it, I know now, you know,

Donal:

it's, it was kind of an experiment, um, and a bit of a risk and I was risking my

Donal:

time because time is fairly limited for me as a writer, and it worked out, thank

Donal:

God, um, so I learned that, you know, that you can pick up after years and years and

Donal:

you can tune back into the voice again.

Tom:

No, that's great.

Tom:

And my final question, and really interested, as you're someone who's

Tom:

who teaches writing, is there one piece of advice that you find yourself

Tom:

returning to that kind of motivates you through your own writing?

Donal:

Yes, absolutely.

Donal:

And it's, keep it simple.

Donal:

Don't strive for the fancier or longer or polysyllabic words when

Donal:

the most direct word will do.

Donal:

And be very careful of precision in language, you know.

Donal:

Make sure the word that you're using describes most faithfully the thing

Donal:

you want to describe, and the beauty will rise from the language itself.

Donal:

Beauty is adherence in language, it's a very beautiful thing, so

Donal:

don't push it, just keep it simple.

Tom:

That's great, well, Donal Ryan, you've been a fantastic

Tom:

guest, and thank you very much for being my guest this week.

Donal:

Thanks so much Tom, it's been a privilege, thank you.

Tom:

And that was the truly excellent, and I'd argue

Tom:

unnecessarily humble, Donal Ryan.

Tom:

Not only does he not have social media, he doesn't even have a website.

Tom:

So if you want to learn more, then you literally have to enroll at the University

Tom:

of Limerick, and he will teach you.

Tom:

Which is probably worth looking into, as the man is a genius.

Tom:

Now obviously, I recommend that you read his books, even if

Tom:

it's just at your local library.

Tom:

You'll learn a lot about rural communities, You can speculate which

Tom:

bits resonate with me, And hopefully, you might learn a bit about yourself too.

Tom:

Now, if you're a regular listener who likes to hear all the way

Tom:

to the end, a special thank you for sticking with me this year.

Tom:

Not only has my health not been great, but now my wife has decided to get

Tom:

a nasty knee injury, so we're both a bit crippled at Pepperdine Towers.

Tom:

This has meant I've not been able to be as focused or consistent as I'd like

Tom:

with the podcast, so I do apologise.

Tom:

But, and it's a big positive but, I am excited that there

Tom:

are good things coming in 2025.

Tom:

To be easy on myself, rather than trying to do seasons, I'm just

Tom:

going to do one podcast a month.

Tom:

That's fairer to you as a listener, as it's more consistent

Tom:

and predictable as a podcast.

Tom:

It's also fair on authors who want to guest on the show.

Tom:

It's if they want an episode to tie in with a book release, they'll know

Tom:

whether that month Is available or not, or I'll know and discuss it.

Tom:

Now, a bit of bad news for prospective guests, but good news for listeners, I

Tom:

think I pretty much have my guests in mind for 2025, which is insane that I can just

Tom:

ask authors I like to come on the show and there's a good chance they'll say yes.

Tom:

Now, death, scandals, outright refusals to come on might happen, but I'm aiming

Tom:

for 2025 to be full of authors I've already read and really strongly rate.

Tom:

Which is exciting and awesome and I really hope you like them too.

Tom:

If I'm building a brand here then it's authors I really recommend you

Tom:

listen to because they're really really good and you should really really

Tom:

read as well as follow their advice.

Tom:

So yeah, there's more to come.

Tom:

Next episode will be the 26th of January 2025 and it'll either be one

Tom:

I've already recorded or Or, the one I'm probably about to invite on as I'm

Tom:

just reading that book, it's great.

Tom:

They need to stick the ending though.

Tom:

Uh, it's outrageous I'm having to be this picky, but if I'm only

Tom:

doing 12 episodes, then every single one needs to be magnificent.

Tom:

It's what you as an audience deserve.

Tom:

Well, I've said enough for this episode.

Tom:

Remember, January is a dreadful month for many people, So don't put too much

Tom:

pressure on new beginnings right now.

Tom:

Do it in March.

Tom:

It'll be easier.

Tom:

Anyway, until next time, keep writing until the world ends.

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The Real Writing Process
Interviewing writers about how they work
Interviews with award winning writers as well as emerging talent on how they manage their day to day process of writing for a living. Hear how the professionals approach structure, plot and imposter syndrome, as well as what they like to drink.
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