The Real Writing Process of Tom Hindle

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Hello and welcome to The Real Writing Process.

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I'm your host Tom Pepperdine and this week my guest is the

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murder mystery author Tom Hindle.

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Tom writes murder mystery novels and not just murder mystery novels but

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really good murder mystery novels.

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I think it's a very hard genre to do well but Tom nails that balance between high

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concept with compelling characters that you just need to keep turning the page.

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Fittingly, it's a dark and stormy night in England when I've

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released this episode, and there's an unsolved murder on the news.

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Is this a work of an overzealous marketing push by his publishers?

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Who's to say?

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What I will say though, his latest book, Murder on Lake

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Garda, is out now, and I loved it.

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I also loved this interview, as I feel that he's in his up

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and coming stage of his career.

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It's really exciting to talk to him.

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I'm sure you'll love it too.

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So wrap up warm, get cozy, have a drink to hand, and enjoy my interview

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with the veritable Tom Hindle.

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And I'm here this week with Tom Hindle.

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Tom, hello.

Tom H: 00:01:02

Hello.

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Lovely to have you on the show.

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Thank you for being here.

Tom H: 00:01:06

Thank you for having me.

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Well, yes.

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And I know that you're not feeling too well, so we have something

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medicinal, I know, for our first drink.

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Can you tell me what we're drinking?

Tom H: 00:01:14

Ah, I have a single measure of my favorite whiskey, which

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is a lovely glass of Aberfeldy, which is going down very nicely.

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And I will never say no to a whiskey, so cheers.

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Thank you.

Tom H: 00:01:25

Cheers.

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Oh, there we go.

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That's warming because, um, just for the listeners, it's a very cold January

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night, quite fitting for a murder mystery, but maybe not this murder mystery

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that you've just coming out, Murder on Lake Garda, which, I absolutely loved.

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Now, it's quite, uh, I'll just go straight into it, because I think

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around this book, especially.

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It's got quite a fun story about how you came up with the idea for it.

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So, do you just want to sort of tell us how you came up with Murder on Lake Garda.

Tom H: 00:01:56

Yeah, of course.

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So it came quite unexpectedly.

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So I was on holiday with my wife in Italy.

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We were at Lake Garda and we were going around a castle.

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This amazing castle in a beautiful little town called Malcesine

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right on the shores of the Lake.

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And, um, we saw a wedding that was taking place.

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And it was just such a, a spectacle, you know?

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You had the glamour of the event, you had the amazing landscape with

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the mountains and the lake and you had the architecture of the castle.

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And, I, I remember quite vividly just looking at it and thinking

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if someone was murdered right there, that would just be the most

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incredible start to a murder mystery.

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And, um, I actually, I took a photo of it.

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So there was a watchtower that you could climb or like a clock tower or some kind

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of tower in this castle and we were at the top of it and so we were looking down on

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this wedding which was happening in one of the courtyards and I took a picture

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and the picture captured everything.

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It had the ceremony, it had the lake behind it, it had

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like the walls of the castle.

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And I took a picture on my phone and I got back to the UK a few days later,

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home from a holiday, and I sent that picture to my agent and my editor.

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Which isn't typically, I think, how you pitch a new idea for a book.

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But I just sent him the picture and I just said, idea for a book.

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You're at this wedding and someone is murdered, and that's the opening chapter.

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What do you think?

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And they both replied just saying, yes, go and go and write this please.

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And that was, that was how it came about.

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So I wasn't, I wasn't looking for it.

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I'd certainly didn't expect it.

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And it just, it just came.

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And at the time, if I understand correctly, you were in

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the middle of writing, well, you just started writing another book?

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Yeah, that's right.

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So I was writing a book that was going to be set in rural Yorkshire.

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So I was really interested in the idea of a murder taking place at a funeral.

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And I was, I was really, I was really interested in this question of why, why

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would someone be murdered at a funeral and sort of what's the story there.

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And the setting I had settled on was a very remote church in rural Yorkshire.

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So I'm from Leeds.

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So I grew up all around the Yorkshire countryside.

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So I know it quite well.

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And I, I had what I thought was quite an exciting image

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of, of this story playing out.

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And I'd, I'd spent a good few months, you know, plotting it out.

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Working out who all the characters were and I'd written a good

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a few thousand words of it.

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But then we went to Italy and I saw the wedding and I came back.

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And it was, it was weird because there was part of me that thought,

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okay, this will be my fourth book.

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So I'm going to finish the Yorkshire book first and then I'm

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going to come on to Lake Garda and that'll be the next one I do.

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Cause of course I had a deadline that I needed to hit and you know, the

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idea of completely scrapping a few months work and losing all that time.

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Because there was no scope to move the deadline to accommodate for a new idea.

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That just didn't seem very appealing.

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But after, you know, a few more weeks, I just kept something in my head

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coming back to the Italian an idea.

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And after I say, after a few weeks, it just occurred to me to know what

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this is, this is the stronger idea.

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And so I ended up dropping the Yorkshire murder at the funeral idea

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and picking up Lake Garda and I'm just going full steam ahead with that.

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Yeah.

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And I think sometimes you really want to have a lot of research when it's a real

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location and you've been there once.

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Was it then you were able to wrangle like, Oh, I need to do another trip just

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to check some things with the publishers.

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Or was it then just like, Okay, I've got that photo.

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I've been there.

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I've walked the streets and a lot of it's more in memory and Google?

Tom H: 00:05:21

Yeah, a bit of both.

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I mean, I did, I did put some fairly serious thought into

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going back for another trip.

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But again, the time just didn't allow in the end.

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Obviously as you do when you go on holiday, we took a ton

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of pictures, loads of videos.

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The place was still very fresh in my mind as well because of

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course we'd just come back.

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and to be honest, I, I watched a lot of YouTube videos.

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I mean, YouTube is proving over the course of my writing career so far to

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be the most valuable source of research.

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I mean, there are videos on YouTube, I think people must just get GoPros and

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just walk really slowly around places.

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Just search on YouTube for a place you're interested in and the word

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walk around and someone was gone and wandered around with a GoPro.

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So I spent a lot of time watching those sort of videos of places

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that we've been, but just again, trying to refresh them in my memory.

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But no, it would have been nice to go back and I did think about it, but

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I think I just thought I just need to crack on and write this thing.

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Rather than coming up with an excuse to go on another little jaunt to

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Italy, as nice as that would have been.

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So you were contracted for your third book.

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Uh, how long did you have from, you know, that decision to

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actually having to turn in a draft?

Tom H: 00:06:27

So, I turned in the draft in April.

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So it was April of last year, so April 2023.

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So we went to Lake Garda in May, towards the end of May, and then as I

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say, there was probably a good month of wrestling with the Garda idea and

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carrying on with the Yorkshire idea.

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So it's probably around July that I actually decided I was

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going to shift to Lake Garda.

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But as I say, you know, there was no, there was no story or anything like that.

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It was just the concepts.

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It was just the idea of a wedding in a castle in Lake Garda.

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Um, there was no characters, there was no, no murder victim, no kind

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of motive, none of that, all of that needed to be worked out.

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I mean, I'm sure we'll get into this, but like one of the few things I really

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need to know before I can write one of these things is, is who the killer is.

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Like I know there are some fantastic crime writers who just set off and see

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where the book takes them and they kind of solve the crime while they're writing it.

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I don't work like that.

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I need to know who, who is going to be unmasked as the killer.

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So it's probably around July that I decided, okay, I'm going to change and

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I'm going to do Lake Garda instead.

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And then there was a good month or two of just working out what

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actually is the story here.

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Like who these characters, whose wedding is it, who is being murdered and why.

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So I probably didn't actually get properly stuck into writing

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it until the end of that summer.

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Then as I said, I delivered it in the following April.

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No, that's that's an amazing turnaround.

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And like you said earlier, it was the concept that initially grabbed you

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and that's where it developed from.

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And then you think about the characters that populated it.

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One thing that I really liked and really stood out for me is how well realized

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the characters and the motives were.

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And in the best sort of murder mystery sense, there's a lot of people who have

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plausible motives that could have done it.

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Is that a real fun element for you?

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Is that a real challenge coming up with all the different characters and making

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them distinct and having their own voice?

Tom H: 00:08:16

It is challenging.

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I mean, it's, it's part of the genre, isn't it?

Tom H: 00:08:19

Um, it's just part of the fun, I suppose, of these sorts of stories.

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I mean, the way that works for me is I, I reverse engineer my stories.

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So, I, I usually start with like a bit of a what if, so in this case,

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the what if was what if someone was murdered at this incredible wedding.

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And then, I kind of backtrack a bit from there, so I'll ask,

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okay, well whose wedding is it?

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And once I have an idea of who the bride and the groom are,

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I ask who's getting murdered.

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Once I have an idea of who the murder victim is, I then think,

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okay, well, what sort of people would this person have around them?

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Who are their friends?

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Who are their family?

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Who are their colleagues?

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Who do they work with?

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Who are their enemies?

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Who are their frenemies?

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And so it comes a little bit like that.

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And I guess the challenging thing, I suppose, is making sure everyone has

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a believable reason to want to kill whoever it is that's been killed.

Tom H: 00:09:03

You know, I guess murdering someone is not exactly, it's not something you do every

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day, but then if there's only sort of one or two people in the story who have that

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believable reason to commit the murder, then it's not a very engaging read.

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Cause people like to be able to read these things and, and suspect different

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characters throughout the book, I suppose.

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And if you're not doing that.

Tom H: 00:09:22

Well, I guess that's what I strive for.

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And when you're mapping out these ideas and doing the plotting,

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doing the characters, are you someone who uses a phone app?

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Are you pen and paper?

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Have you got a laptop with lots of different folders?

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How do you map out all your plotting?

Tom H: 00:09:39

I've become a little bit looser with this with every book.

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So, with my first book, A Fatal Crossing, I planned it so rigidly that I actually

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had a spreadsheet showing where each of the characters were gonna be at certain

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times because it takes place over, I think, three or four days, that book.

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And I had like a different tab for each day, and then within the tab I had

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columns for, for the different suspects and I had, you know, I made a really

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complex map of where each of them were at any given time that I could refer to.

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But then over the course of the various different drafts and the editing process,

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most of that went out the window.

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So I've become a little bit looser.

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I think I need to have an idea of who the characters are.

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So every character has to have kind of a want and a need and they have to have

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something kind of interesting about them.

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And I need to know, as I say, who the murderer is, so I can build up to that.

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And I need to know the mechanics of how the murder has taken place.

Tom H: 00:10:31

Usually I have a few touch points along the way so I need to, I need

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to know when these certain important clues are going to be found, or if

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there's going to be a big kind of game changing reveal or confession.

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I need to know sort of roughly where in the story that's going to be, like is

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it going to be about halfway through, three quarters of the way through?

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But, you know, once I have that idea of those touch points and I have a good

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idea of who these characters are, I just sort of trust myself to fill in the

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blanks and trust myself to get from one kind of important moment to the next.

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And fill in those spaces as I go.

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And sometimes, you know, as I say, with the first book, I

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tried to be very, very rigid.

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Like I had a word document with chapter one and then three bullet points

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as to what happens that chapter, chapter two, three bullet points.

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Whereas now I just kind of go for it.

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And sometimes that means I end up getting halfway through and realizing,

Tom H: 00:11:16

Oh, actually it'd be more interesting if this happened at this point of the book

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instead of this point of the book or I get two thirds of the way through and

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I think, ah, what if this character's motivation was actually this and not this?

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And you have to go back and tweak it again.

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So I do quite a lot of tweaking as I go.

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You hear about some writers kind of threshing out a first draft of in

Tom H: 00:11:34

two or three months, that's not me.

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I mean, for context with Lake Garda, when I sent it off to my editor, in

Tom H: 00:11:39

April, there was a chapter in that draft that didn't exist when I woke up that

Tom H: 00:11:44

morning, you know, so I am, yeah, so I am genuinely, I'm, I'm a, I'm a tweaker.

Tom H: 00:11:47

I really do tweak as I go along, rather than kind of splurging out

Tom H: 00:11:51

this big draft and then spending however many months, you know, going

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back and rewriting it and editing it.

Tom H: 00:11:56

The draft I send off usually is the first complete draft.

Tom H: 00:12:00

Yeah.

Tom: 00:12:01

And it's unapologetically, you know, a classic murder mystery.

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You know, it's a fixed location.

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There's almost a ticking clock element to it as well.

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And so it has a very classic timelessness to it.

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Is that the genre that you want to build your brand around?

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Is that just something that you've obsessively read before writing,

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or is it just for the moment, it's murder mysteries, but you want

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to branch out into other things.

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Maybe just down the line?

Tom H: 00:12:28

It's a funny one, really.

Tom H: 00:12:29

So growing up, for example, my favorite cartoon when I was a kid was Scooby Doo.

Tom H: 00:12:33

So I, I really enjoyed all these stories that revolved around the idea of this

Tom H: 00:12:37

big cast of characters and a bit of a whodunit and, you know, a rug pull at the

Tom H: 00:12:41

end and a reveal of who the baddie is.

Tom H: 00:12:43

And then when I got a little bit older, my favorite books were the

Tom H: 00:12:46

Harry Potter series, which, you know, if you look at the first three

Tom H: 00:12:49

or four of those in particular are perfectly good murder mysteries.

Tom H: 00:12:52

They have a cast of suspects, they have clues of a big reveal

Tom H: 00:12:55

of the baddie at the end.

Tom H: 00:12:56

So, I first tried to write A Fatal Crossing when I was about 15 or 16,

Tom H: 00:12:59

and the idea was a play that I could put on with some mates at school.

Tom H: 00:13:03

And it wasn't going to be a whodunit at that point.

Tom H: 00:13:05

I don't think there was actually a murder in it at all.

Tom H: 00:13:07

It was going to be about a stolen painting, and it was going to be more

Tom H: 00:13:10

of a kind of a crime comedy caper.

Tom H: 00:13:13

I was watching a lot of Jeeves and Worcester and Frasier and that stuff.

Tom H: 00:13:16

So that was, that was the tone.

Tom H: 00:13:18

It was all going to be on a cruise ship, just like happens in the book.

Tom H: 00:13:21

And it was still going to be in the 1920s and they're still

Tom H: 00:13:23

on their way to New York.

Tom H: 00:13:24

Um, I think the painting was going to end up rolled up inside an umbrella

Tom H: 00:13:27

or something silly like that.

Tom H: 00:13:29

So I wrote the first half of that play, and then my friends and I all finished

Tom H: 00:13:32

school and went off to university.

Tom H: 00:13:35

And the play obviously didn't happen.

Tom H: 00:13:36

And then the idea for the story lived on a memory stick for, for quite a few years.

Tom H: 00:13:40

And then when I was 24, I was given for Christmas a copy of

Tom H: 00:13:45

Magpie Murders by Anthony Horowitz.

Tom H: 00:13:48

I'm A huge, huge Horowitz fan.

Tom H: 00:13:50

Like I grew up reading the Alex Ryder books.

Tom H: 00:13:53

I read the Diamond Brothers stories, which was probably some of my, I

Tom H: 00:13:56

mean, the Diamond Brothers, for those who don't know, cause I know they

Tom H: 00:13:58

aren't quite as famous as Alex Ryder.

Tom H: 00:14:00

They were about like a hapless PI and his really intelligent kid brother.

Tom H: 00:14:04

So that was probably my first detective stories that I read.

Tom H: 00:14:07

But anyway, so I got given this copy of Magpie Murders for Christmas, and

Tom H: 00:14:12

that is a book of two halves, and the first half is this very Agatha Christie

Tom H: 00:14:16

esque Midsomer Murders y, uh, the vicar is murdered on the day of the local

Tom H: 00:14:20

vegetable show, that kind of vibe.

Tom H: 00:14:22

And I'd not actually read any Agatha Christie at that point,

Tom H: 00:14:26

so this was my first proper taste of That sort of golden age vibe.

Tom H: 00:14:30

I remember reading it and just thinking, Oh my goodness, this is what a fatal

Tom H: 00:14:34

crossing could be with some adjustments.

Tom H: 00:14:35

If we do it as a novel, obviously, instead of a play, if we try and make it a little

Tom H: 00:14:38

less funny, because I tried to make it a comedy, which definitely didn't work.

Tom H: 00:14:42

I've still got some of those pages and it is not so funny.

Tom H: 00:14:45

And if we sort of make it slightly more of a murder mystery.

Tom H: 00:14:47

So if we add a murder in there somewhere, then this is what

Tom H: 00:14:49

a fatal crossing could be.

Tom H: 00:14:51

And that was when I went out and I picked up a big stack of Agatha Christie novels.

Tom H: 00:14:54

So I know you hear a lot of writers who, who write this sort of thing, talk about

Tom H: 00:14:58

just plowing through Agatha Christie's when they were kids, like reading them

Tom H: 00:15:02

all in the summer, you know, that's the sort of thing you hear quite often.

Tom H: 00:15:04

This was my first taste of Agatha Christie when I was about 25 and I

Tom H: 00:15:08

was, I was writing a fatal crossing.

Tom H: 00:15:11

So I wrote it and I signed a one book deal for that book.

Tom H: 00:15:15

And then it did relatively well and I was offered a deal for a

Tom H: 00:15:18

couple more murder mysteries.

Tom H: 00:15:20

And I said, yes, cause I had a fantastic time writing it.

Tom H: 00:15:23

And that deal yielded the murder game and murder on Lake Garda.

Tom H: 00:15:26

And same again, my publisher said, do you fancy doing a couple more?

Tom H: 00:15:29

And I said, yes, absolutely.

Tom H: 00:15:30

Cause I'm still loving writing them.

Tom H: 00:15:31

So I'm very much enjoying writing the murder mysteries, but it was never,

Tom H: 00:15:35

I don't know, I remember I always wanted to be a writer when I was a kid.

Tom H: 00:15:38

I can remember writing lots of little stories of my own at home about, you

Tom H: 00:15:42

know, characters in books and films that I'd I was enjoying at the time.

Tom H: 00:15:45

I can remember being, it was even my last year of primary school or first year of

Tom H: 00:15:48

high school, one or the other, but you had to stand in front of the class and

Tom H: 00:15:51

give a sort of five minute presentation on where you wanted to be when you're older.

Tom H: 00:15:54

And I said, I wanted to be a writer.

Tom H: 00:15:55

So the ambition was always there, but I don't think if you'd gone back and told

Tom H: 00:16:00

me I would be writing whodunit, I, I don't think I'd have seen that coming.

Tom H: 00:16:04

I think that would probably have come as a surprise, but I'm enjoying it.

Tom H: 00:16:07

And, um, Yeah, of course.

Tom H: 00:16:09

I've got ideas of other things I'd like to do.

Tom H: 00:16:11

So I've got an idea for a ghost story that I'd really like to write at some point.

Tom H: 00:16:14

I quite enjoy a lot of sci fi, so at some point I might want to

Tom H: 00:16:18

have a go at something like that.

Tom H: 00:16:20

There are definitely other things I'd like to do, but I think I'm always

Tom H: 00:16:23

going to have a murder mystery up my sleeve just because I'm, I'm really

Tom H: 00:16:26

enjoying writing them, genuinely I am.

Tom H: 00:16:27

And I'm very lucky to get to do it and, you know, I have ideas.

Tom H: 00:16:31

I mean, I'm working on a fourth one right now.

Tom H: 00:16:33

I've got an idea for a fifth one.

Tom H: 00:16:34

As long as I've got an idea for one, and I'm going to keep doing them.

Tom: 00:16:38

And so with the one that you're working on at the moment,

Tom: 00:16:41

are you still in the plotting stage?

Tom: 00:16:42

Are you sort of now drafting it out?

Tom: 00:16:44

How far along are you?

Tom H: 00:16:46

So, I delivered the first draft of it to my editor just before Christmas.

Tom H: 00:16:50

And she's read it and we've, we've had a chat about where it kind of needs to go.

Tom H: 00:16:54

So, I mean, the process, I guess, for those who don't know, is you

Tom H: 00:16:56

get like an edits letter, which is, I guess it's like an essay.

Tom H: 00:17:00

The ones I usually get are between two and 3000 words.

Tom H: 00:17:03

And, you know, it contains a lot of detail about what's working and what's not.

Tom H: 00:17:07

And you go away and you have a proper sort of formal round of editing that

Tom H: 00:17:10

you have to then deliver by a deadline.

Tom H: 00:17:12

So we're not there yet.

Tom H: 00:17:13

We've had a chat, my editor and I about sort of initial thoughts and

Tom H: 00:17:17

where I think we should try and adjust it when it comes to editing properly.

Tom H: 00:17:21

So I'm playing around with it at the moment and I'm just gearing up

Tom H: 00:17:25

for that edits letter to come and for the editing to start properly.

Tom H: 00:17:29

But it's, yeah, it exists and, um, and I'm, I'm quite excited about it.

Tom: 00:17:34

And when you're in the middle of a writing session, drafting,

Tom: 00:17:37

before it's, uh, sent off.

Tom: 00:17:39

Are you someone who makes sure to write every day?

Tom: 00:17:42

Do you have like set hours, and do you have any sort of targets either

Tom: 00:17:46

of just how many hours in front of the desk that you are there writing or a

Tom: 00:17:51

number of chapters or a word count?

Tom: 00:17:54

How do you structure a writing day?

Tom H: 00:17:55

So I try and keep business hours.

Tom H: 00:17:58

So I'm at my desk by eight most mornings and I, I work through

Tom H: 00:18:02

till about sort of five or six.

Tom H: 00:18:04

I guess for a few different reasons, one of which is I like to be online when, I

Tom H: 00:18:09

guess, the people I work with are online.

Tom H: 00:18:10

So if I need to talk to my agent or, well, usually it's if they need to talk to me.

Tom H: 00:18:15

Um, if, you know, so if my agent needs to get in touch or my editor or my publicist

Tom H: 00:18:19

or anyone like that, I like to, I like to feel like I'm online when they are.

Tom H: 00:18:24

I like to be online at the same time my wife is online so that

Tom H: 00:18:28

I'm offline at the same time.

Tom H: 00:18:29

I just, I feel like if I'm working in the evenings and the weekends and she's

Tom H: 00:18:32

not working, that doesn't sound like a great recipe for a happy marriage.

Tom H: 00:18:36

Um, so yeah.

Tom H: 00:18:38

And again, I like a bit of structure as well.

Tom H: 00:18:40

So I think just working Monday to Friday, more or less nine to five.

Tom H: 00:18:44

So I'm, I'm writing full time now.

Tom H: 00:18:46

Um, I stepped away from my day job about 18 months ago and those

Tom H: 00:18:50

first few months, the total lack of structure really boggled my mind.

Tom H: 00:18:54

Cause I mean, I worked in an office, I worked Mondays, Friday nights five.

Tom H: 00:18:57

And um, I was just used to, you know, on Monday mornings we have this meeting.

Tom H: 00:19:01

On Tuesday afternoons, we have this call with this client and you know,

Tom H: 00:19:04

all of that going out the window.

Tom H: 00:19:06

I've genuinely, I found most days I woke up and I just didn't

Tom H: 00:19:08

have a clue what day it was.

Tom H: 00:19:09

And I just found having that structure of, okay, I am online.

Tom H: 00:19:13

Um, during business hours, that is what I'm working, that is when

Tom H: 00:19:16

I'm writing, I take weekends off.

Tom H: 00:19:18

I just found that really helped me.

Tom H: 00:19:21

I don't know, keep my head straight, I suppose.

Tom H: 00:19:23

Um, but in terms of daily requirements, I mean, I try and get between

Tom H: 00:19:28

one and 2000 words done a day.

Tom H: 00:19:30

As I say, I'm quite slow.

Tom H: 00:19:31

I'm not someone who just blasts out a first draft of in a couple of

Tom H: 00:19:35

months, writes 5, 000 words a day and then goes back and rewrites it.

Tom H: 00:19:39

I do tinker with it as I go along and I do edit as I'm going along and I might

Tom H: 00:19:44

chuck out 5000 words that I wrote last week, you know, because I've woken up

Tom H: 00:19:48

on Monday and realized actually, you know, that section just doesn't work.

Tom H: 00:19:51

And, as we said earlier, that draft I sent to my editor genuinely had an entire

Tom H: 00:19:55

chapter in it that I wrote that morning.

Tom H: 00:19:57

It was a short chapter saying it was only a thousand words long, and I find

Tom H: 00:20:00

I'm quite, I get into it quite slowly and I speed up a bit as I go along.

Tom H: 00:20:04

So I take quite a lot of time finding my way into the story and just working out

Tom H: 00:20:10

you know, how is it going to be linear or is it going to have a couple of timelines?

Tom H: 00:20:13

Is it going to be from just one character's perspective or are we going

Tom H: 00:20:17

to have a few different narrators?

Tom H: 00:20:18

Uh, what point in the story do I start?

Tom H: 00:20:20

So I mean, murder in Lake Garda, there was about a 10, 000 word section that

Tom H: 00:20:25

took place in the UK before traveling out to Italy, which, you know, that was

Tom H: 00:20:30

the first thing I wrote and it ended up going because we just didn't need it.

Tom H: 00:20:33

I, you know, I, I do aim for sort of a minimum of a thousand a day.

Tom H: 00:20:36

I don't usually do more than 2000 because I say, it's just not how I do it.

Tom H: 00:20:40

I'm quite slow and steady.

Tom H: 00:20:42

And it seems to be working so far.

Tom: 00:20:44

And when you finish for the day, are you someone who likes to

Tom: 00:20:48

leave on a cliffhanger bit so you can pick it up in the morning?

Tom: 00:20:52

Do you want like a very closed off, I have completed that scene or that section?

Tom: 00:20:57

I've heard mythically, I've never actually interviewed anyone

Tom: 00:21:00

who's done it, but leaves it mid sentence to carry on the next day.

Tom: 00:21:04

How do you like to leave a writing session?

Tom H: 00:21:06

Yeah, mid sentence is a bit extreme, but I do find it quite helpful

Tom H: 00:21:10

to leave it sort of mid chapter.

Tom H: 00:21:12

It's something I think I heard on a podcast like this about this time

Tom H: 00:21:15

last year, they had that idea of leaving a chapter midway through.

Tom H: 00:21:19

Because you then don't have that problem of the blank page

Tom H: 00:21:21

when you come back the next day.

Tom H: 00:21:22

It gives you a bit of a run up, I suppose, if you just pick up something that you're

Tom H: 00:21:26

working on the previous day, rather than trying to start a completely new chapter.

Tom H: 00:21:29

So yeah, usually it's midway through a chapter and then that's where I'll

Tom H: 00:21:33

pick it up, I find that quite helpful.

Tom H: 00:21:34

But no mid sentences, I mean, maybe it'll work.

Tom H: 00:21:37

Maybe I'll try it tomorrow, who knows?

Tom: 00:21:38

There you go.

Tom: 00:21:39

And when you pick it up, do you just read the last few sentences just

Tom: 00:21:43

to remind yourself where you were?

Tom: 00:21:45

Or do you actually reread the whole thing you wrote the previous day?

Tom: 00:21:48

Because you said you tinkered, so I wasn't sure, like, how much you go back.

Tom H: 00:21:51

I guess it varies.

Tom H: 00:21:52

Like, I mean, if I wrote a chapter the previous day that I know wasn't as

Tom H: 00:21:55

good as it can be and needs some work, then maybe I'll go back and do that.

Tom H: 00:21:59

If it's just a case of picking up where I left off, then I'll probably

Tom H: 00:22:02

read what I wrote of that chapter.

Tom H: 00:22:04

I mean, my chapters tend to be quite short.

Tom H: 00:22:06

I mean, most of my chapters are usually somewhere between 1, 500

Tom H: 00:22:09

and two and a half thousand words.

Tom H: 00:22:10

So we're not dealing with like 5, 000 word chapters.

Tom H: 00:22:12

So if I've written half a chapter and then logged off for the day, that's

Tom H: 00:22:16

probably only about a thousand words for me to go back in and reread.

Tom H: 00:22:19

And I think as well it's quite helpful just to orient yourself in the chapter and

Tom H: 00:22:24

in, in the scene and Just remind yourself exactly what it is that's going on.

Tom H: 00:22:28

Because otherwise you might end up going and writing something that's completely

Tom H: 00:22:31

unrelated to the first half of the chapter you wrote the previous day.

Tom H: 00:22:33

So yeah, usually I'll go back and read something just to

Tom H: 00:22:36

get back into the headspace.

Tom: 00:22:37

Do you ever have days where you come down and it's just really uninspired and

Tom: 00:22:41

how do you push through that feeling?

Tom H: 00:22:44

Yeah.

Tom H: 00:22:45

I mean, of course.

Tom H: 00:22:46

Some days you do come down and it just doesn't work.

Tom H: 00:22:50

Sometimes I'll just try and push through.

Tom H: 00:22:51

I mean, if there's a deadline coming up, then you kind of

Tom H: 00:22:54

just have to push through.

Tom H: 00:22:55

Um, sometimes, I'll take myself for a walk.

Tom H: 00:22:58

I mean, I know it's really simple, but genuinely I did it today, like

Tom H: 00:23:01

I was struggling with something, just a small plot hole, um, that

Tom H: 00:23:05

I've come across in the new one.

Tom H: 00:23:06

And I took myself for a walk, put my phone on silent, didn't take my headphones

Tom H: 00:23:10

to listen to any music or anything, just walked around with the problem.

Tom H: 00:23:13

Within 20 minutes, I'd solved it.

Tom H: 00:23:15

That happens quite a lot.

Tom H: 00:23:17

Um, my thinking walks as I call them, my wife quite often, if I'm getting

Tom H: 00:23:20

sort of annoyed with something, my wife will send me on a thinking walk.

Tom H: 00:23:23

And say, go and have a thinking walk, and it usually solves the problem.

Tom H: 00:23:27

Sometimes I would just accept it's not working that day and I might

Tom H: 00:23:30

just go and do something else.

Tom H: 00:23:32

Like I might go work on another project or I might just take myself off

Tom H: 00:23:36

and, and do something else entirely.

Tom H: 00:23:37

Like I might watch an hour of something on TV and just clear my head.

Tom H: 00:23:41

Sometimes it's indicative of a larger problem, I suppose.

Tom H: 00:23:44

I mean, one of the best pieces of advice I've ever heard on how to

Tom H: 00:23:48

deal with writer's block is that writer's block is what happens when

Tom H: 00:23:50

you're trying to push the story in a direction it doesn't want to go.

Tom H: 00:23:53

So if you're really, really having to force something and you've been struggling

Tom H: 00:23:57

with a fit for a few days, then taking your mind off, it doesn't help or

Tom H: 00:24:01

going on a thinking walk doesn't help.

Tom H: 00:24:02

Then that's usually when I stop and start to question, okay, is

Tom H: 00:24:05

this actually, is this just wrong?

Tom H: 00:24:07

Like, am I trying to do something here that just doesn't fit?

Tom H: 00:24:10

And um, sometimes it's a case of backtracking and trying to work out,

Tom H: 00:24:14

okay, well, does this need to come out?

Tom H: 00:24:15

Or does this need to change?

Tom H: 00:24:16

Like the 10, 000 words section in, in Lake Garda in the UK, that we talked

Tom H: 00:24:20

about a minute ago that I took out.

Tom H: 00:24:21

That was similar.

Tom H: 00:24:22

You know, I was going back over that, doing a bit of tweaking and tinkering

Tom H: 00:24:25

as I do to just try and make it work.

Tom H: 00:24:27

And I think that took me a couple of weeks to come to terms with,

Tom H: 00:24:30

just because of the number of words I was considering getting rid of.

Tom H: 00:24:34

But yeah, after a couple of weeks, I found myself saying this

Tom H: 00:24:37

isn't working, it's got to go.

Tom H: 00:24:38

And sometimes, sometimes that's the answer.

Tom: 00:24:40

Well, they say, kill your darlings, don't they?

Tom: 00:24:42

That's the phrase.

Tom: 00:24:43

Um, but yeah, the opening I found was a real good hook.

Tom: 00:24:47

I felt that it really set the scene brilliantly and you're there and

Tom: 00:24:52

it's just, it's a really nice setup.

Tom: 00:24:54

So, I can't imagine it not sort of starting how it starts.

Tom: 00:24:58

So that's really amazing that it had like that ah, prequel element.

Tom H: 00:25:02

Wonderful.

Tom H: 00:25:02

Thank you.

Tom: 00:25:03

I would say it's the right decision.

Tom: 00:25:04

Having not read it, but how it starts now, I think like you say, the story

Tom: 00:25:08

goes in the way it needs to go.

Tom: 00:25:10

And I think that opening setup works really well.

Tom: 00:25:14

Now, another thing I want to sort of talk about with struggling through

Tom: 00:25:18

writing is, uh, imposter syndrome.

Tom: 00:25:21

And I know it's a thing that a lot of people can feel at some point through

Tom: 00:25:25

their writing process is that imposter syndrome, that they're a terrible writer.

Tom: 00:25:31

Is that something that you've ever felt and how did you deal with it?

Tom H: 00:25:34

Yeah, I mean, quite regularly, I suppose.

Tom H: 00:25:37

I mean, I'd say, you know, a couple of days a week, I will look at the manuscript

Tom H: 00:25:41

and think this is the worst thing that has ever been written by anyone ever.

Tom H: 00:25:47

This is just, you know, you do look at it and just resent it almost and

Tom H: 00:25:51

think what's an absolute load of crap.

Tom H: 00:25:54

But then you work through it and then you have days when you look

Tom H: 00:25:59

at it and you think, actually, this is quite good, you know?

Tom H: 00:26:03

And you feel pleased of how it's coming together and it can be

Tom H: 00:26:06

on and off like Monday can be a really crap day and Tuesday can

Tom H: 00:26:09

be a, oh, this is quite good day.

Tom H: 00:26:11

And then Wednesday, it will be crap again.

Tom H: 00:26:13

And then Thursday, it will be better than it's ever been.

Tom H: 00:26:15

Then Friday, it will be God maybe I need to call this off.

Tom H: 00:26:18

Because this is, you know, so you, you can have weeks like that.

Tom H: 00:26:22

And I think I probably didn't get it so much with a Fatal Crossing because

Tom H: 00:26:25

that was, that book was a hobby.

Tom H: 00:26:27

There was no agent or editor waiting for it.

Tom H: 00:26:31

And while I hoped it would be published, you know, it was, it was a hope, you know,

Tom H: 00:26:35

I didn't actually think it would happen.

Tom H: 00:26:36

So there wasn't a sense of imposter syndrome of a Fatal Crossing .With the

Tom H: 00:26:39

murder game that was slightly different.

Tom H: 00:26:42

Because of course there was a publisher waiting for it then.

Tom H: 00:26:44

And people had been buying and reading a fatal crossing and quite enjoying it.

Tom H: 00:26:49

So there was a pressure to deliver something that people would

Tom H: 00:26:53

hopefully buy and enjoy again.

Tom H: 00:26:55

And Murder on Lake Garda, even more so because now even more people have,

Tom H: 00:26:59

you know, I got the wonderful update.

Tom H: 00:27:01

I think I put it on Twitter towards the end of last year that since the

Tom H: 00:27:04

paperback came out in the summer, we'd sold 50, 000 copies of it.

Tom H: 00:27:08

The Murder Game.

Tom: 00:27:09

Oh wow.

Tom H: 00:27:10

Exactly.

Tom H: 00:27:10

That was my response.

Tom H: 00:27:11

So, you know, the thought that some of those people might have enjoyed

Tom H: 00:27:14

that book enough to go and buy Murder in Lake Garda when it comes out.

Tom H: 00:27:18

Yeah, of course, there's a, there's a huge amount of pressure to deliver

Tom H: 00:27:22

something that people are going to enjoy and find some value in.

Tom H: 00:27:25

And, you know, I think that is probably what drives the, uh, the days when

Tom H: 00:27:29

you look at the manuscripts and you think this just isn't good enough.

Tom H: 00:27:32

I mean, for me, certainly, it's just a case of trying to push those voices

Tom H: 00:27:36

deep down and just rest assured in the knowledge that when I wake up

Tom H: 00:27:40

tomorrow, I might look at it and think, actually, do you know what?

Tom H: 00:27:44

I didn't need to feel that way because looking at this now, it's perfectly good.

Tom H: 00:27:48

And I think as well, part of it for me is trying not to think

Tom H: 00:27:52

about how other authors work.

Tom H: 00:27:54

So I know that for some authors, it's really helpful to, to kind

Tom H: 00:27:59

of meet up and to compare how many thousands of words you've written

Tom H: 00:28:03

that day, or, you know, just to talk about other people's processes.

Tom H: 00:28:07

I find my problem is I compare myself.

Tom H: 00:28:09

I find it very like.

Tom H: 00:28:11

interesting to listen to other people.

Tom H: 00:28:13

And sometimes I will pick up something that genuinely helps me.

Tom H: 00:28:16

So like we were talking about earlier with the leaving a chapter halfway through,

Tom H: 00:28:21

um, and picking it up the next day.

Tom H: 00:28:22

But if I'm having like a bad day, a day where I'm looking at the

Tom H: 00:28:25

manuscripts and thinking, I am no good at this, what am I doing?

Tom H: 00:28:28

Then I try and stay away from Twitter and places where I know people are going

Tom H: 00:28:33

to be talking about what they're doing, because those are going to be for days

Tom H: 00:28:35

when I'll look at it and I'll think, Oh my goodness, this person says they've written

Tom H: 00:28:39

two and a half thousand words today.

Tom: 00:28:40

Yeah.

Tom H: 00:28:41

What am I doing?

Tom H: 00:28:42

What, what gives me any kind of, uh, authority to, to think that

Tom H: 00:28:46

I could, I could write a book.

Tom H: 00:28:47

Um, so I think it's just a case of on the days when I am looking at it and

Tom H: 00:28:52

I'm thinking this, this is not working.

Tom H: 00:28:55

I know I need to sort of insulate myself a little bit and just get my head down

Tom H: 00:28:59

and just keep going on the work and trust that it, it is going to come together.

Tom H: 00:29:04

Because, I've done this three times now and experience now shows that

Tom H: 00:29:09

it does come together, you know?

Tom H: 00:29:11

But of course, imposter syndrome, when you know that there are people out there

Tom H: 00:29:15

reading something that you've created and enjoying it and occasionally you

Tom H: 00:29:19

get a message on Instagram, someone saying, I'm really excited to buy

Tom H: 00:29:22

your new book when it comes out in a few months, which is wonderful.

Tom H: 00:29:25

I'm very grateful, but it is impossible sometimes not to get a sense of,

Tom H: 00:29:29

oh, man, what if these people twig the fact that I'm, I'm just an

Tom H: 00:29:32

idiot making stuff up in my kitchen?

Tom H: 00:29:35

It's, um, yeah, so it's, it's not a constant thing.

Tom H: 00:29:38

For me, it is a case of days when you think this is great and days

Tom H: 00:29:42

when you think this is awful.

Tom H: 00:29:44

And people are going to be angry when they spend money on this and realize,

Tom H: 00:29:48

but, it's just a case of trying to stay positive and focus on those good days and

Tom H: 00:29:52

just trust that it will come together.

Tom H: 00:29:54

Because as I say, experience shows it does.

Tom: 00:29:56

Yeah.

Tom: 00:29:56

That's, that's a great answer.

Tom: 00:29:57

Thank you.

Tom: 00:29:58

And going on to editing now, you've mentioned earlier how, you're a tinkerer.

Tom: 00:30:04

And you like to sort of tinker as you go.

Tom: 00:30:06

Also I know, and I listened to an interview where you were talking

Tom: 00:30:09

about, the murder game, that you very much had this process where the first

Tom: 00:30:14

draft is just get the story down, second draft is make it readable,

Tom: 00:30:18

and the third draft is make it good.

Tom: 00:30:20

And I was just wondering, is that still the case?

Tom: 00:30:23

Would you say you're still kind of doing it in that three stage

Tom: 00:30:26

process, or is it a bit more flexible now that you're tinkering more?

Tom H: 00:30:30

So, with Murder on Lake Garda, and the one I'm working on at the

Tom H: 00:30:33

moment, I've had less time, so the deadlines have been slightly tighter.

Tom H: 00:30:38

And, you know, with Murder on Lake Garda, as, you know, we've got over that was

Tom H: 00:30:41

self induced by, by spending the first 2 3 months working on another book.

Tom H: 00:30:45

Um, so, I think, you know, that was probably the case with the

Tom H: 00:30:49

Murder game, and it's probably been less so with Lake Garda.

Tom H: 00:30:52

As I say, late Garda, I was tinkering with it, I was adjusting it, I was

Tom H: 00:30:56

throwing bits out, adding new bits in.

Tom H: 00:30:58

So, you know, I didn't have a complete draft until the

Tom H: 00:31:03

minutes I sent it to my editor.

Tom H: 00:31:05

But I think it probably still applies in the sense of, I still think the

Tom H: 00:31:08

actual, doing a proper edit on it is when a book really comes into its own.

Tom H: 00:31:14

I think I found that with Garda and I'm finding it now as I

Tom H: 00:31:17

gear up to, to edit my 4th one.

Tom H: 00:31:20

So yes, I'll get that 1st draft while it involves a lot of tinkering

Tom H: 00:31:25

and a lot of sort of work on it, adjusting it and playing around with

Tom H: 00:31:30

it while I'm putting it together.

Tom H: 00:31:32

It is just a case of putting it together.

Tom H: 00:31:33

And then yes, that 2nd draft when it comes to to editing it.

Tom H: 00:31:37

I think that is when I'm most likely to get to the end and look at it and think

Tom H: 00:31:41

this is something I can imagine on a shelf with a cover and, and people buying.

Tom H: 00:31:45

So yeah, I think that's probably still fair to say.

Tom: 00:31:47

Okay.

Tom: 00:31:47

That's good.

Tom: 00:31:48

And when you finished it in isolation, who's the first person to read it next?

Tom: 00:31:54

Does it go straight to your agent, your editor, your, your wife has a pass.

Tom: 00:31:59

Who reads it first after you've finished?

Tom H: 00:32:02

So, with Garda and the new one, it has been my editor.

Tom H: 00:32:06

Again, because of time so, in an ideal world, it would go to my agent first, and

Tom H: 00:32:10

he would make sure it's, it's kind of up to scratch before it goes to my editor.

Tom H: 00:32:14

But again, self induced of Lake Garda, I lost three months at the beginning, and

Tom H: 00:32:20

you know, the deadline was the deadline.

Tom H: 00:32:21

It couldn't be moved, and I finished it.

Tom H: 00:32:24

That first draft, as we say, a few minutes before the deadline.

Tom H: 00:32:26

So, um, yeah, so it's been my headset and it's been the same with the fourth one.

Tom H: 00:32:31

So yeah, I sent it to her shortly before Christmas.

Tom H: 00:32:34

And again, I started writing that one in June.

Tom H: 00:32:37

So that was another pretty speedy turnaround for me.

Tom H: 00:32:41

So yeah, it was a case of writing it right up until the minute and sending it off

Tom H: 00:32:45

and she was the first person that goes to.

Tom H: 00:32:46

So my, my wife does like to read them as well.

Tom H: 00:32:49

I do usually stick them on a Kindle and she reads them while

Tom H: 00:32:52

my editor is reading them.

Tom H: 00:32:53

So they kind of read them at the same time, but yeah, my editor is,

Tom H: 00:32:57

is the first person that goes to.

Tom H: 00:32:58

Yeah.

Tom: 00:32:59

And is it the same editor that you had since the murder game?

Tom: 00:33:02

Or is it right from the Fatal Crossing?

Tom: 00:33:04

When did this editor sort of come on?

Tom H: 00:33:06

Yeah, right from Fatal Crossing.

Tom H: 00:33:07

So it's my, my editor, Emily.

Tom H: 00:33:09

So she's been my editor on all of them and she is excellent.

Tom H: 00:33:14

picks out all the things that need changing and has a very keen eye that

Tom H: 00:33:18

I'm, I'm very grateful for, and it's been very important to making sure

Tom H: 00:33:21

those books are as good as they are.

Tom: 00:33:23

Yeah, I feel that editors are really the unsung heroes and it is a partnership.

Tom: 00:33:27

Because they really do help you bring your voice to the fore and

Tom: 00:33:31

get the story that you want to tell.

Tom: 00:33:33

Uh, With a good editor at least.

Tom: 00:33:35

And before you were writing, uh, you were a copy editor?

Tom H: 00:33:40

So I worked for a PR agency, public relations agency.

Tom H: 00:33:43

So I was doing a lot of different things.

Tom H: 00:33:45

I was doing kind of press relations.

Tom H: 00:33:48

I was doing social media.

Tom H: 00:33:49

I was doing a bit of event management, but yes, a lot of copywriting.

Tom H: 00:33:52

So the copywriting was, was really what I got into it for.

Tom H: 00:33:56

I mean, we talked already when I was a kid, I wanted to be a writer.

Tom H: 00:33:59

And when I was in uni, I was coming to the end of my degree.

Tom H: 00:34:02

I studied English language.

Tom H: 00:34:03

I was looking at roles that would let me write for a living.

Tom H: 00:34:06

And I thought copywriting might be a good sort of route to go down.

Tom H: 00:34:12

And I knew that if I got a job in a PR agency, I'd spend a

Tom H: 00:34:15

lot of time doing copywriting.

Tom: 00:34:17

So has that made you quite resilient to editors notes?

Tom: 00:34:21

Or is it still a hit where you need a stiff drink, maybe another

Tom: 00:34:24

shot of whiskey before you reflect?

Tom: 00:34:27

Or is it just like, great, give me feedback and this will

Tom: 00:34:30

help the manuscript get better.

Tom: 00:34:32

Like, how do you react when you first get those notes?

Tom H: 00:34:36

I mean, there's never a bad reason to have a shot of whiskey.

Tom H: 00:34:38

I would say, um, no, I I'd say it has made me pretty resilient.

Tom H: 00:34:43

I think it's more learning how to take that kind of feedback and learning

Tom H: 00:34:48

not to take things personally and learning when to push back on things.

Tom H: 00:34:52

Cause yeah, everything I wrote in the agency would go through a manager first,

Tom H: 00:34:57

usually a kind of an account manager, and then it would go to the client and there

Tom H: 00:35:01

would always be a few rounds of feedback.

Tom H: 00:35:03

I mean, I worked in PR agencies for about 8 years, so I had quite

Tom H: 00:35:06

a few years of learning how to, to take that and deal with it and just

Tom H: 00:35:09

respond to it in a very practical way.

Tom H: 00:35:12

And I think that has absolutely helped.

Tom H: 00:35:14

I mean it's interesting.

Tom H: 00:35:15

It's similar, but different, I suppose, with a book, because I mean,

Tom H: 00:35:18

it's, it's on a much bigger scale.

Tom H: 00:35:20

It's something you are more personally and emotionally invested in.

Tom H: 00:35:24

And something I try to always do now when we talked a bit about

Tom H: 00:35:27

the edits letter and what that looks like when it comes through.

Tom H: 00:35:29

And I make myself just sit with it for a couple of days before I do anything.

Tom H: 00:35:35

Because quite often I will read the edits letter and I'll

Tom H: 00:35:39

think, not sure about that.

Tom H: 00:35:41

Or I'll read a comment and go, I haven't quite understood that.

Tom H: 00:35:44

Maybe I need to give him a call and we'll talk about this.

Tom H: 00:35:46

And, you know, I get to the end and I usually sort of feel a bit like,

Tom H: 00:35:50

I'm not sure about a lot of this.

Tom H: 00:35:52

And then I sit with it for a day or 2 and I wake up and I think, bloody

Tom H: 00:35:55

hell, everything in that edits letter is absolutely, completely spot on.

Tom H: 00:35:59

So yes, I think that is, that is kind of part of my process, I guess, if

Tom H: 00:36:03

you like, is I need to sit with it and just ruminate on it and just think.

Tom H: 00:36:07

I mean, a big part of the editing process for me is just thinking.

Tom H: 00:36:09

It's just sitting with the problems going on those thinking walks, just letting it

Tom H: 00:36:14

sit in your head and working out what's.

Tom H: 00:36:17

the answer to these problems might be.

Tom H: 00:36:19

But yeah, to answer your question, working at a copywriting role for eight years

Tom H: 00:36:23

or so, definitely gave me some skills that I think has helped with the books.

Tom: 00:36:27

And just moving a bit further into the end and wrap up of your stories.

Tom: 00:36:31

Because like I say, with Lake Garda, you finished it in April.

Tom: 00:36:35

It's now coming out in January and you start the following book,

Tom: 00:36:40

June, July, and you now just put it in for the edits in December.

Tom: 00:36:44

So there's very tight sort of turnarounds.

Tom: 00:36:47

When you finish a project, like Lake Garda was like signed off, okay, it's

Tom: 00:36:50

going for the printers and all of that.

Tom: 00:36:52

Is there a sense of relief of like, I've done it, great, on to the next one?

Tom: 00:36:57

Or is there an element of grief of you've, you know, created these characters,

Tom: 00:37:02

like Robin's, like a really nice central character, these relationships.

Tom: 00:37:06

And don't want to spoil the ending, but you can feel that there's a

Tom: 00:37:09

continuation of their story, which is up for the reader, which I like.

Tom: 00:37:13

So is it a relief to finish or is it grief to finish?

Tom H: 00:37:17

It's not grief as such.

Tom H: 00:37:19

I mean, it's, I guess it's a little bit of relief because.

Tom H: 00:37:23

Yeah, I'd say I start off quite slowly and I speed up and by the time I'm

Tom H: 00:37:27

sort of in a month or two of the deadline, I mean, we talked to me about

Tom H: 00:37:30

my working hours, all kind of notion of working hours go out the window.

Tom H: 00:37:33

And it's, it's evenings and it's weekends and it's just frantically

Tom H: 00:37:37

trying to get the last sort of chunk of this first draft done.

Tom H: 00:37:40

So, yeah, usually there is a little bit of a, a sense of relief just that it is

Tom H: 00:37:44

done and it's out in the world now, it's going on to that sort of next stage.

Tom H: 00:37:48

There's, I guess it's a little bit of sadness to, to leave those characters

Tom H: 00:37:53

behind, especially if there's one that you get quite attached to.

Tom H: 00:37:55

Like, I really enjoyed being in the world of Murder on Lake Garda.

Tom H: 00:37:59

It was, it was just a fun place to be and to be writing about.

Tom H: 00:38:03

And as you say, Robin, I'm really glad you liked Robin as a character.

Tom H: 00:38:06

I Robin might be my favorite of the kind of protagonists that I've written.

Tom H: 00:38:10

Um, and I think that the villain, if you like, or the villains of

Tom H: 00:38:13

this story are some of my favorites.

Tom H: 00:38:15

So yeah, it's a bit of a shame to leave them behind.

Tom H: 00:38:17

But usually I end up deciding an idea for my next book, uh, sort

Tom H: 00:38:22

of a few months before I finish.

Tom H: 00:38:24

Usually a really inconvenient moment when I'm head down and really need

Tom H: 00:38:27

to be focusing on finishing the book I'm currently working on.

Tom H: 00:38:30

That is when I start getting excited about an idea for the next book.

Tom H: 00:38:34

So, usually it's a sense of excitement because I'm thinking to myself, Ah,

Tom H: 00:38:39

thank goodness, I can crack on with this new book that I've been wanting

Tom H: 00:38:41

to write for a few months now, and I really want to get stuck into.

Tom H: 00:38:44

So, yes, there is usually a little bit of sadness, maybe a little bit

Tom H: 00:38:47

of relief, but more than anything, I'm, I'm thinking, right, it's time

Tom H: 00:38:51

to get started on something new.

Tom H: 00:38:53

And that's always very exciting.

Tom: 00:38:55

And, yeah, I'm really glad that Robin's one of your

Tom: 00:38:57

favourite characters as well.

Tom: 00:38:58

With Anthony Horowitz and with Agatha Christie and referencing

Tom: 00:39:03

Harry Potter, they're all series.

Tom: 00:39:05

And in Murder Mystery, having a central character solving multiple

Tom: 00:39:11

mysteries, is that something that appeals to you in the future?

Tom: 00:39:15

Because these are all great standalones.

Tom: 00:39:17

But is there that temptation and have you started developing one just in

Tom: 00:39:22

the background, just simmering away?

Tom: 00:39:24

Or is that something that you're not interested in?

Tom H: 00:39:26

So, I mean, my take on this is that to have a series, I need a character

Tom H: 00:39:32

who can develop over that series.

Tom H: 00:39:34

I need a character who justifies multiple stories to tell

Tom H: 00:39:39

their own story as a person.

Tom H: 00:39:41

You know, it's all very well having a load of lovely crimes for them to solve,

Tom H: 00:39:45

but also what about them as characters?

Tom H: 00:39:47

I think one of the best examples at the moment.

Tom H: 00:39:49

I've just finished reading the Ink Black Heart the Strike books and

Tom H: 00:39:52

that, yeah, the, the relationship between Strike and Robin, that is what

Tom H: 00:39:56

people come back to those books for.

Tom H: 00:39:58

Like, the crimes are great, but people come back to see these characters and

Tom H: 00:40:02

their lives and what's going to happen for them next, away from the murder mysteries.

Tom H: 00:40:06

And I think I would totally be open to a series once I hit on a

Tom H: 00:40:10

character who I think justifies having that multi book story.

Tom H: 00:40:16

Um, so I think it will happen one day.

Tom H: 00:40:17

What I quite like about the standalones for now is that it gives you a

Tom H: 00:40:22

totally blank canvas with each book.

Tom H: 00:40:24

You can go wherever you want in the world.

Tom H: 00:40:26

Any time period, any place.

Tom H: 00:40:29

I like discovering these new characters of every book.

Tom H: 00:40:32

You know, like this character of Robin, we won't see her

Tom H: 00:40:34

again, this is her story now.

Tom H: 00:40:36

But also I've enjoyed spending that time and I, I like an ending as well.

Tom H: 00:40:40

I really like getting to the end of a book and, you know, as you say,

Tom H: 00:40:43

we leave it not quite ambiguous, but there is the hint that their, their

Tom H: 00:40:47

story as people is going to continue.

Tom H: 00:40:49

And the reader can kind of do with that what they will.

Tom H: 00:40:51

And I like that.

Tom H: 00:40:52

Personally, I think it's a little bit easier to get emotionally

Tom H: 00:40:54

invested in these characters, when you get to the end and you're

Tom H: 00:40:57

like, right, this is your story.

Tom H: 00:40:58

This is your lot, do with it what you will.

Tom H: 00:41:00

There is no, Oh, but maybe in the next book, they'll reconcile

Tom H: 00:41:04

or they'll fall out or whatever.

Tom H: 00:41:05

This is your story.

Tom H: 00:41:06

And I like being able to sit and just process that.

Tom H: 00:41:09

And I think it makes me think a little bit more deeply about what

Tom H: 00:41:12

it is that has happened to these characters over the course of the

Tom H: 00:41:14

books to know that this is their story.

Tom H: 00:41:16

There is no next time for these guys or to be continued.

Tom H: 00:41:20

It's a case of this is what's happened to them.

Tom H: 00:41:22

This is the people they are now versus the people who are

Tom H: 00:41:24

at the beginning of this book.

Tom H: 00:41:25

And that's your lot.

Tom H: 00:41:27

So, so the standalones are working for me quite well at the moment.

Tom H: 00:41:30

And, As I say, I like going to all these different locations.

Tom H: 00:41:34

Garda was very, very different to the Devon hotel in the murder game, which

Tom H: 00:41:38

was different again to the cruise ship, which believe me is very different

Tom H: 00:41:41

to what I'm doing for book four, and what I'm planning to do for book five.

Tom H: 00:41:44

So I, I'm enjoying these kind of globe trotting, different

Tom H: 00:41:48

locations for each one.

Tom H: 00:41:49

So maybe there will be a series one day.

Tom H: 00:41:51

It's just, it's hitting on that character.

Tom: 00:41:53

Sure.

Tom: 00:41:54

Now final two questions.

Tom: 00:41:56

It's my belief that writers continue to grow and develop their writing

Tom: 00:41:59

with each story that they write.

Tom: 00:42:01

Was there anything in particular that you learned from writing

Tom: 00:42:04

Murder on Lake Garda that you're now applying to your latest project?

Tom H: 00:42:08

Being Open to getting rid of things, I suppose.

Tom H: 00:42:11

I know we've talked about it a couple of times already, but that that 10, 000 word

Tom H: 00:42:14

chunk that I threw out at the beginning.

Tom H: 00:42:16

It was interesting because it really helps me get to know who

Tom H: 00:42:20

some of these characters were.

Tom H: 00:42:21

I mean, I guess I can say, because it's not spoilerific and no one's going

Tom H: 00:42:24

to read it anyway, because it's gone.

Tom H: 00:42:25

But those 10, 000 words, they were all about Robin and Toby,

Tom H: 00:42:29

who are two central characters in Murder in Lake Garda, meeting.

Tom H: 00:42:32

And it was about, you know, those chapters showed their first meeting, it showed

Tom H: 00:42:36

their first date, it showed, you know, the kind of beginning of their relationship.

Tom H: 00:42:41

Which when I was writing it, I thought you needed.

Tom H: 00:42:44

Because I thought you needed to see how these characters came together and you

Tom H: 00:42:48

needed a bit, need to see a little bit more of them as a couple to really kind

Tom H: 00:42:51

of buy into Robin's place in the story.

Tom H: 00:42:54

But you know, once I'd written a good chunk of, you know, probably

Tom H: 00:42:57

the rest of the book, I realized actually you don't need this.

Tom H: 00:42:59

This is covered elsewhere.

Tom H: 00:43:01

So it was helpful to write that.

Tom H: 00:43:02

It was a good exercise in it.

Tom: 00:43:04

Yeah.

Tom: 00:43:04

I was just thinking it's as the author, knowing that backstory really helpful.

Tom H: 00:43:08

Yes, exactly.

Tom H: 00:43:10

But then hitting delete and getting rid of that whole 10, 000 word

Tom H: 00:43:13

chunk was the right thing to do.

Tom H: 00:43:16

And it's the first time I've actually done that.

Tom H: 00:43:18

Like, you know, fatal crossing, the murder game, there was the odd thousand

Tom H: 00:43:21

words here and there that needed to go, but there was not a 10, 000 word chunk

Tom H: 00:43:25

that needed to be deleted from those.

Tom H: 00:43:26

So being brave enough to delete things, even if they're

Tom H: 00:43:29

kind of a little bit helpful.

Tom H: 00:43:30

Just recognizing what does the story need and being led by the story.

Tom H: 00:43:34

I think I've learned from Garda that I'm brave enough to, to do that rather

Tom H: 00:43:39

than to fight for something that I know shouldn't really be there.

Tom: 00:43:41

Oh, that's great.

Tom: 00:43:42

And is there one piece of advice you find yourself returning

Tom: 00:43:46

to with your own writing?

Tom H: 00:43:49

Gosh, that's a big question.

Tom H: 00:43:50

Um, I think it coming back to the question of the imposter syndrome and

Tom H: 00:43:58

the days when it's, it's all just feeling bad and you feel like you can't do

Tom H: 00:44:02

it or like you shouldn't be doing it.

Tom H: 00:44:04

I think it's just trusting in the process and just getting your

Tom H: 00:44:06

head down and just doing the work.

Tom H: 00:44:08

I try very hard to put on a good show on social media for people.

Tom H: 00:44:11

And to reply to all of people's comments and they say lovely things and make

Tom H: 00:44:16

sure I'm putting interesting things out.

Tom H: 00:44:18

But, you've got to knuckle down and do the work at the end of the day.

Tom H: 00:44:22

It's all about books, you know?

Tom H: 00:44:23

People come for good books and that's what people are here for.

Tom H: 00:44:26

So, yeah, I think just getting down and focusing on the work, you

Tom H: 00:44:29

know, the work has to come first.

Tom H: 00:44:31

The books have to come first.

Tom H: 00:44:32

If you aren't writing first and foremost, what are we here for?

Tom H: 00:44:35

So, yeah, that would probably be it.

Tom H: 00:44:38

Just, just getting, getting the work done.

Tom: 00:44:39

No, that's great.

Tom: 00:44:40

Well, Tom Hindle, you've been absolute pleasure.

Tom: 00:44:42

Thank you very much for being my guest this week.

Tom H: 00:44:44

Thank you for having me.

Tom H: 00:44:45

It's been great.

Tom: 00:44:46

And that was my interview with Tom Hindle.

Tom: 00:44:49

If you like how he talks, you should see how he writes.

Tom: 00:44:51

Equally good and engaging.

Tom: 00:44:53

And if you'd like to check out his books, I do recommend them.

Tom: 00:44:56

Go to your nearest bookshop and pick up a copy.

Tom: 00:44:58

I know it's horrible weather, but it's really good escapism

Tom: 00:45:01

and you won't regret it.

Tom: 00:45:03

If you'd like to check out his social media, then I recommend you

Tom: 00:45:05

follow his Instagram account, Tom.

Tom: 00:45:08

Hindle, where you can see his lovely youthful face and pictures of his cat.

Tom: 00:45:12

But a quick Google and you can find everything else.

Tom: 00:45:15

And that's it for this week.

Tom: 00:45:16

I say week, I really mean month.

Tom: 00:45:18

But it's my birthday in a few days and I need time to read

Tom: 00:45:21

the books before the interviews.

Tom: 00:45:22

Got some great ones lined up though.

Tom: 00:45:24

So until next time, stay healthy, try getting out of the house

Tom: 00:45:28

at least once a week, and keep writing until the world ends.