The Real Writing Process of Tim Lebbon
Tom Pepperdine interviews Tim Lebbon about his writing process. Tim discusses why he wrote the first draft of his last book in longhand, whether he sees himself as a planner or a pantser, and why his latest book, The Last Storm, is the best thing he's ever written.
You can find all of Tim information on his website here: https://www.timlebbon.net/
And you can follow him on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/timlebbon
And you can find more information on our upcoming guests on the following links:
https://twitter.com/Therealwriting1
https://www.instagram.com/realwritingpro
https://www.facebook.com/therealwritingprocesspodcast
Transcript
Hello and welcome to The Real Writing Process.
Speaker:I'm your host, Tom Pepperdine.
Speaker:And this week, my guest is the British horror and dark
Speaker:fantasy writer, tim Lebbon.
Speaker:I'm so happy to have Tim on as a guest.
Speaker:Firstly, because he's a lovely gent, lovely to talk to and
Speaker:his books are a great read.
Speaker:But also he has written so many of my favorite characters in an
Speaker:epic career of tie-in novels.
Speaker:He's written Hellboy.
Speaker:He's written Ripley in Alien: Out of the Shadows.
Speaker:He's written Malcolm Reynolds in Firefly: Generations.
Speaker:He's also written in the Star Wars universe and done the film
Speaker:novelizations to 30 Days of Night and Kong: Skull Island.
Speaker:And if that is not all, his original stories have also been turned into films.
Speaker:The Silence became a Netflix film, starring Stanley Tucci, and Pay the Ghost
Speaker:was a film with Nicholas frickin Cage.
Speaker:It was an honor to pick his brain and learn about his writing process, but
Speaker:also an arguably more importantly, what his favorite beverage is.
Speaker:Dear audience, may I present my interview with Mr.
Speaker:Timothy Lebbon.
Speaker:Hello.
Speaker:And I'm pleased to say that this week I am joined by Tim Lebbon.
Speaker:Tim, hello!
Speaker:Hi Tom.
Speaker:Great to be here.
Speaker:Hello.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:I'm glad that you are here too.
Speaker:And as always, my first question is what are we drinking?
Speaker:Well, I'm halfway through a mug of really good Colombian coffee at the moment.
Speaker:I was toying with the idea of a beer, but it's still late afternoon.
Speaker:So coffee is the way to go.
Speaker:And it's Columbian because my son's on the way to Columbia in three weeks time.
Speaker:Oh, wow.
Speaker:To do traveling.
Speaker:So I'm yeah.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Is coffee, your regular writing drink?
Speaker:Yes, I'm a bit of a coffee fiend.
Speaker:I know lots of writers are tea first thing in the morning, but then on
Speaker:coffee late morning, probably only two or three cups a day, to be honest.
Speaker:But I've got a nice coffee machine and if I go a day without coffee, I'm climbing
Speaker:the walls, which is probably not a great thing health wise, but, you know,
Speaker:uh, but it's a good working drink, I guess it keeps you focused with the caffeine.
Speaker:I guess so.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'm not conscious that it gives me a hit, but it obviously does.
Speaker:Like I say, climb the walls.
Speaker:If I don't have one before mid-afternoon, I'm getting antsy and
Speaker:I'm also, I can also have a coffee, 11 o'clock and then go to bed.
Speaker:I know some people who won't drink their coffee past midday
Speaker:because they can't sleep.
Speaker:It never affects me.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And where I'm talking to you now, is this your writing spot?
Speaker:Is this your writing desk?
Speaker:Yeah, I'm in my office at home.
Speaker:Excellent.
Speaker:And how long have you had a dedicated writing space?
Speaker:I'm very lucky, actually.
Speaker:We live in a three bed semi in a nice little village in South Wales, but
Speaker:it's, it's got an extra room downstairs.
Speaker:Like they, I think when we bought the house it was
Speaker:advertised as the dining room.
Speaker:And it was a while, and then it became half an office to me and
Speaker:half the playroom for my daughter when she was born 23 years ago.
Speaker:But since I've been writing full-time, which is a little over
Speaker:15 years, it's been it's my room.
Speaker:As you can see I've got books everywhere.
Speaker:I've got record player, reading chair, posters.
Speaker:It's a mighty fine man cave, I think.
Speaker:Yeah, I sort of got two really, cause we've got a cabin in the garden where
Speaker:all my books, bikes and weights.
Speaker:But my wife's been working there through lockdown.
Speaker:So it's, that bit in the garden is now partly office, partly man cave.
Speaker:And do you find that you can only write or you write your best work in your
Speaker:office, or can you just write anywhere?
Speaker:So that that varies.
Speaker:Lockdown changed that quite a bit because I made a decision just
Speaker:before lockdown and I decided I'm going to write a new novel on spec.
Speaker:I'm going to write it longhand in notebooks, which have still got piled up.
Speaker:And then lockdown happened.
Speaker:So I went with the idea of writing in notebooks and it meant that
Speaker:I was circulating all around the house throughout the day.
Speaker:Because like I say, three bed semi.
Speaker:It's quite sizable house for four adults.
Speaker:And the cabin in the garden really saved us through lockdown because I spent a
Speaker:lot more time sitting out there writing.
Speaker:Usually straight on a computer, but for that one novel, it was a handwritten.
Speaker:So I do a fair amount of writing away from home, in cafes and things.
Speaker:And I can do that quite comfortably.
Speaker:I find distractions at home, noise at home is more distracting for
Speaker:me than distractions outside.
Speaker:So if I sit in a coffee shop and it's really noisy, I can write.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But if I sit at home.
Speaker:For instance now I'm just looking at my dog in the back garden he might
Speaker:start barking soon as it's dinner time and that's a distraction.
Speaker:But if I'm in a coffee shop, I just stay at the table.
Speaker:I do find that I can write virtually anywhere as long as I've got
Speaker:either a laptop or a notebook.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And what you're working on now.
Speaker:So your last book was a first draft, I guess, in notebooks.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Is that something that you think you'll repeat or was it just the plot
Speaker:of that lent itself to being written longhand or was it just an experiment?
Speaker:It was an experiment because I'm good friends with Rio
Speaker:Youers, a Canadian writer.
Speaker:He's a great guy, incredible writer, Rio.
Speaker:And he writes everything longhand.
Speaker:He writes, I don't think he's ever written anything straight on to the computer.
Speaker:And he writes longhand in pubs and cafes and sometimes at home,
Speaker:but usually away from home.
Speaker:It was a few years ago when he was living in Vienna and I, so it's a long
Speaker:story which I'll try and cut short.
Speaker:We went to a vampire convention in Transylvania, which does, does
Speaker:sound as incredible as it was.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:Me, Rio and Chris Golden were guests there.
Speaker:And one evening we did a read thing in a cemetery in Transylvania.
Speaker:There was lightning, bats flying around in the church belfry and
Speaker:we heard barking in the distance.
Speaker:We were told afterwards was wolves and you can't get any better than that.
Speaker:Well you can, because in the morning I had chunks of Transylvanian grave
Speaker:dirt in the treads of my boots.
Speaker:So that's a Transylvania story.
Speaker:And I stayed with Rio in Vienna for a few days after that.
Speaker:And we have good chat about our writing processes, and I really fell in love
Speaker:with the idea of writing longhand.
Speaker:That's why I did this novel longhand.
Speaker:Back to your question and I'm going to do it again, not immediately.
Speaker:And that the reason, two reasons.
Speaker:One reason when you've written 100,000 word novel in notebooks,
Speaker:then you have to type it up.
Speaker:It's a real tough task.
Speaker:Reason number two, my handwriting is so terrible that
Speaker:sometimes I just got the gist.
Speaker:So you know I was typing up my own handwriting thinking, what
Speaker:did I, what does that word say?
Speaker:uh, I think if I did do it again, it would be, I do it how Rio does
Speaker:it, which is you'll write a thousand words and you'll transcribe it
Speaker:and edit it as he goes along.
Speaker:So even talking to you about it now, I'm about to start
Speaker:a new novel, very very soon.
Speaker:Even talking to you about it now, I, I still might consider
Speaker:doing it longhand because of the sort of freedom it gives you.
Speaker:When I decided to write the novel longhand, a couple of years ago, I had
Speaker:romantic notions of sitting on top of mountians with a cup of massive coffee,
Speaker:and then frigging COVID happened.
Speaker:And I wrote the whole thing at home.
Speaker:That was my rounadbout ambling way of saying I'm not sure if I'm you know.,
Speaker:I think it's, it's fascinating to write like, you know, like you say a
Speaker:hundred thousand words in long form.
Speaker:Did you find that your writing sessions differed greatly, like
Speaker:the length of time that you could write was either longer or shorter?
Speaker:I guess, you can move around a bit more than being chained to a computer
Speaker:or a laptop, but I guess there's a risk of hand cramps, so pros and cons.
Speaker:Did you write longer or shorter or did you keep to a set time?
Speaker:Probably shorter time-wise, but I think the writing was more intense.
Speaker:And it changed the way I wrote quite significantly, I think.
Speaker:Because when I'm not a great typist, I'm a three finger typist.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Three fingers, thumb, space bar.
Speaker:Three or four finger typist.
Speaker:I'm fairly quick at it, but I make mistakes.
Speaker:So when I find, when I'm typing, I'll often go back and
Speaker:I'll be editing as I go along.
Speaker:Because I see that I've made mistakes, so I go back and edit.
Speaker:But handwriting was just flow.
Speaker:I'd cross the odd word out here and there, but I didn't worry
Speaker:about editing as I went into long, which showed when I transcribed.
Speaker:But then transcribing in itself was uh, was the first edit, really.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So I think the writing periods were shorter.
Speaker:Partly, like you say, hand cramp s.
Speaker:So partly for that reason.
Speaker:And also partly cause it was during lockdown and there
Speaker:four of us in the house.
Speaker:So I'd have an hour in one room and then I had to go to another
Speaker:room for another hour, maybe.
Speaker:Because my daughter is finishing a degree at home.
Speaker:My son was doing A levels at home.
Speaker:My wife was working at home.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Sounds hellish.
Speaker:But to be fair, to be honest, the first lockdown we still quite enjoyed.
Speaker:We were just at home together and it was quite nice.
Speaker:But it did make working quite difficult.
Speaker:So the writing periods were shorter, but I was getting the same sort
Speaker:of word count down that I aim for when I'm working on a novel.
Speaker:Which is probably, I aim for a couple of thousand words a day when I'm
Speaker:really in the saddle on a novel.
Speaker:And I was just thinking with writing, I don't want any kind of like plot
Speaker:spoilers, but first or third person.
Speaker:Sometimes if you're writing first person, it could really feel like journal entries
Speaker:and with third person, I guess it's that more classical style of a novel.
Speaker:Omniscient narrator.
Speaker:Would you be comfortable saying, whether it was first person or third person?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:There's a bit of both in a novel actually.
Speaker:I like writing, I like mixing it up in a novel.
Speaker:So in the novels, the novel I wrote, it's called The Last Storm.
Speaker:It's going to be published in July by Titan Books.
Speaker:And there's some first person, some third person.
Speaker:I do, I enjoy writing first person, cause it is, does feel like you say almost
Speaker:like a journal entry and almost as if you're in that head of the character.
Speaker:But also I find, I think for a full length novel it can be a bit intense
Speaker:and also you need to get away from that character sometimes to find
Speaker:out what other people are doing.
Speaker:It's a sort of a chase story.
Speaker:So a family chase story in some regards.
Speaker:And I've done that before in novels, first and third person.
Speaker:It's difficult to do sometimes, but I think if you, somebody who I love
Speaker:as a writer, Mike Marshall Smith.
Speaker:I love him as a person as well.
Speaker:He did it in a novel quite a while back and I thought that was fucking great.
Speaker:I really appreciated that and enjoyed it.
Speaker:I do try that occasionally.
Speaker:Cool.
Speaker:That's excellent.
Speaker:And I also wanted to ask, more general about your writing process.
Speaker:Before you dived into writing it longhand, do you have a specific outline?
Speaker:Do you map a lot of the plot and the events before that, or are you much
Speaker:more of a by the seat of your pants?
Speaker:You know where you're going, but you want to just create in each writing session?
Speaker:Pantser or plotter.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'm more of a pantser, to be honest.
Speaker:So sometimes I'll write a novel that's based on a proposal
Speaker:that I've sold to a publisher.
Speaker:Other times, such as with Eden and The Last Storm, I wrote the novels on spec.
Speaker:So it wasn't like a polished proposal that I'd written to send to a publisher.
Speaker:So what I usually do, I'll think about a novel a lot before I
Speaker:write it and make lots of notes and they're really scattershot.
Speaker:If I open my file of notes, it might be 10, 15, 20 pages long, but
Speaker:it's not in any particular order.
Speaker:And then I plan as I go along.
Speaker:So once I've thought about the novel and I found my way into it,
Speaker:which always involves, for me, the first page of a novel as, as a
Speaker:reader and even more importantly as a writer is, is really important.
Speaker:I need to feel that my first page or two really sings, you know?
Speaker:Really needs to feel three-dimensional and the characters need to sing off the page.
Speaker:Once I find my way into a novel, I tend to plan on ahead
Speaker:a couple of chapters at a time.
Speaker:When I was writing it longhand, I had a notebook, which was next couple of
Speaker:chapters this happens, that happens.
Speaker:But when I'm writing on the computer at the end of my day writing there's
Speaker:always a big wad of notes that I've planned for the future chapters.
Speaker:I'll usually have a rough idea of where it's going.
Speaker:I'll always have a rough idea of where the novel's going, where the story's going.
Speaker:But sometimes people die when I wasn't, might not have been expecting them to.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And it sounds glib but I always say I speed up writing when I get to
Speaker:the end of the novel, because I want to know what happens at the end.
Speaker:You usually have a rough idea, but I'm also keen to get there.
Speaker:I certainly don't plot novels out in great detail.
Speaker:Which often results in me writing myself into a corner, but I quite like that.
Speaker:Like writing yourself into a problem and you have to think your way out of it.
Speaker:Because that's what happens in life.
Speaker:You encounter problems, you have to work your way around them.
Speaker:Sorry.
Speaker:I, yeah, just one other quick thought.
Speaker:I also think if you plot a novel in great detail and actually plan scene
Speaker:by scene like you might do if you're writing a screenplay, for instance.
Speaker:You've told the story already.
Speaker:So it might not feel so fresh when you're actually writing it.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And I think that, of the pansters I've spoken to, that seems
Speaker:to be the school of thought.
Speaker:What I really was interested in asking, if it's not a overall plot
Speaker:that is the Genesis of the idea of the story, what tends to form the
Speaker:initial elements of a story for you?
Speaker:Is it that you have a character that really interested you and
Speaker:what kind of world is this person live in, or is it a scenario and
Speaker:a kind of broad strokes society?
Speaker:And does it vary, but do you find that you felt you'd lean towards character
Speaker:or world scenarios when you first start developing an idea for a book?
Speaker:Probably much more scenarios and ideas and concept.
Speaker:Sometimes if I like my novel, The Silence, for instance.
Speaker:I can remember which I wrote seven or eight years ago, six or seven years ago.
Speaker:I can actually remember the moment where I thought monsters that hunt by
Speaker:sound, then I'll call it The Silence.
Speaker:And that was the g enesis of that novel.
Speaker:It's rare that I'll come up, fairly rare that I'll come up with the character
Speaker:and then the novel comes from there.
Speaker:It's usually a situation or like I say, a concept.
Speaker:My last, Eden, The Last Storm, and the novel I'm about to start
Speaker:are all sort of climate or driven by climate change cli-fi fiction.
Speaker:I don't really like the term, but cli-fi horror.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So w with Eden, I knew with Eden, it was the idea of a adventure racing
Speaker:team going somewhere dangerous.
Speaker:Evolved into the the climate change idea.
Speaker:With The Last Storm that was always going to be there anyway.
Speaker:And now I think I need to write a third one.
Speaker:Yeah, so usually often a really small idea.
Speaker:But as with The Silence, it's just high concepts and that was it.
Speaker:But that doesn't happen very often.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And with Eden as example, adventure runners in a dangerous setting.
Speaker:How do you then go, cause it's quite a band of characters and
Speaker:they've all got their own agency.
Speaker:How'd you go about developing your characters?
Speaker:Do you like do character maps or are they based on certain archetypes?
Speaker:How do you go around developing your characters?
Speaker:Usually I've gotten an idea of what it'd be like as I go into the novel,
Speaker:but the development for me happens as I'm writing most of the time.
Speaker:Which often means that I have a fair amount of character
Speaker:editing to do when I go back.
Speaker:But it sort of feels like I'm a stranger meeting them for the first time.
Speaker:So they've got their lives behind them in a background, but I don't know them.
Speaker:I don't know anything about them.
Speaker:So going into the novel I'm discovering them is the same way that reader is.
Speaker:I've done various things that you're told, oh, you should do a character interview.
Speaker:And I've done that.
Speaker:20 questions.
Speaker:Ask each character 20 questions and write their answers.
Speaker:So that in your head they're rounded people before you go
Speaker:in and start fighting them.
Speaker:I don't do that all the time.
Speaker:I'm trying to think of how that worked with Eden.
Speaker:I think, yeah, it's like a sort of a fluid thing.
Speaker:I don't remember sitting down and writing lots of character notes.
Speaker:Possibly for the, for Jenn and Dylan the main characters.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But just develop as I go along really.
Speaker:Again, and I think if you write pages and pages of character stuff, before you start
Speaker:the novel, you know everything about them.
Speaker:And, part of the fun of writing a novel for me is the same fun I get
Speaker:from reading a novel, sometimes.
Speaker:It's finding out about the story and finding out that the
Speaker:characters and what happens.
Speaker:And I suppose building a novel as I go along is the same way that
Speaker:I'm discovering novel as I read.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I think, a story comes in drafts, and I think it sort of people who new
Speaker:to writing or don't write, don't realize how many iterations of the story are
Speaker:told before the one that gets published.
Speaker:Developing character that way.
Speaker:You tell the story and the characters bring out and like you said there
Speaker:earlier ,sometimes a character may die when you weren't expecting it.
Speaker:The impact that will have on the other characters and how their actions and
Speaker:motivations may change because of that is what you find exciting about the stories?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I know some writers who love to plan things out and might react
Speaker:in horror, but I think that's the glorious thing of, there is no right
Speaker:answer in how to write a story.
Speaker:And I always find it fascinating to hear the people who start and go,
Speaker:yeah, I have no idea what happens, but then that's why I'm writing it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I don't think any two people write write a novel in the same way, be honest.
Speaker:It's not just pantser v plotter it's yeah, everyone's got a different approach.
Speaker:And, you know, I have different approaches to different novels as well.
Speaker:This novel I'm writing now is, about to start writing, I've written a
Speaker:full proposal for it for a publisher.
Speaker:So that's a different process.
Speaker:So the last two, which I wrote on spec.
Speaker:Different in a way, but then I'll often I do often say if I write
Speaker:a proposal and sell a novel to a publisher, I never look at it again.
Speaker:I just go write the novel.
Speaker:When you write proposals, is this for an existing IP and existing universe?
Speaker:Well, it can be, but it can also to be for, this is for
Speaker:an original novel of my own.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And with this proposal that you've written, so you'd know
Speaker:the ending already, or is it just more of a hook on the concept?
Speaker:I don't really know the ending.
Speaker:And like I say, if the publisher I've sent it to when, if, and when they buy it,
Speaker:I'm pretty hopeful it's going to happen.
Speaker:I might not look at the proposal again.
Speaker:I'll put it in a drawer, I'll write the novel.
Speaker:I will, I'll pick out plot points from it, but then a lot will change, inevitably.
Speaker:Because it's six months work and at the end of six months, I'd have
Speaker:written my way through the novel and met the characters and the ending I
Speaker:had in the proposal might not suit.
Speaker:And when I deliver novel, the publisher is not going to go back to the proposal
Speaker:and say, oh, this isn't exactly the same.
Speaker:If I wrote a historical Naval romance instead of a climate change horror
Speaker:thriller, they might have problems, but it's going to be a similar sort of story.
Speaker:That's cool.
Speaker:And you have written in existing IP with Alien tie-in novels and the various
Speaker:sort of movie books that you've written.
Speaker:How has it writing when there's a pre-established mythos compared to
Speaker:your own original books, is that easier or much more challenging?
Speaker:It's a different challenge, I think.
Speaker:I wouldn't say it's easier or harder, and each property brings different challenges.
Speaker:So I've written Star Wars, Alien, Predator, Hellboy, 30 days of night,
Speaker:Firefly, and they're all licensing regulations are all different.
Speaker:The relationships between publisher and licenser are different.
Speaker:They all necessitate like a detailed proposal before you
Speaker:start writing, like Star Wars, I had to write a detailed proposal.
Speaker:And I was surprisingly for me, I thought it was going to be really
Speaker:stringent, but I was given free reign really, which was quite nice.
Speaker:The Alien book came from, so the first Alien novel I wrote was part of a trilogy
Speaker:with me, Chris Goldman and Jim Moore.
Speaker:A two page proposal from Fox.
Speaker:So we were given the real rough outline.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And then we had to expand it, but then I wrote an Alien vs.
Speaker:Predator trilogy, which just all my own sort of idea of far future.
Speaker:And then, like I say, everyone's different and novelizations of movies
Speaker:is you just give them the script and you say, turn this into a novel.
Speaker:So that's probably the easiest tie-in work to do.
Speaker:But you're often told here's a script, we need it in a month.
Speaker:And by the way, it's not the shooting script.
Speaker:So you have to do changes at the end.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So there's often difficulties with that as well.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And because some of the Alien Vs Predator, you've got your own characters.
Speaker:And so that's yeah, a bit more freedom, but when you're first Alien, the Fox
Speaker:,proposal you actually had Ripley in it.
Speaker:And did you feel any pressure to really get the voice of Ripley, right?
Speaker:Or was that just more in working with the editor at the end?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:I felt a lot of pressure, but also I'm, that was my dream
Speaker:job, a Ripley Alien novel.
Speaker:I'd always wanted Alien, I love the Alien films, in lesser
Speaker:degrees as, as the sequels go on.
Speaker:Alien is my favorite film of all time.
Speaker:And when we saw, when we saw the proposal from Fox.
Speaker:One of the novels was a Ripley novel and I said I want to do the first
Speaker:one and then it was all agreed.
Speaker:Great.
Speaker:Yeah, that was great.
Speaker:So there was pressure.
Speaker:I think I've got her voice okay.
Speaker:And even, even someone who got it even better, Dirk Maggs adapted the novel
Speaker:for audio drama and the woman playing Ripley, can't remember her name for
Speaker:the life of me, but she was fantastic.
Speaker:And Dirk got her voice just perfectly.
Speaker:Oh, that was great.
Speaker:That was great fun to write.
Speaker:Really great fun.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Cause I guess it's just when it's your own characters, the audience trust you
Speaker:and just put their own imprint on it.
Speaker:But when everyone can hear Sigourney Weaver's voice in
Speaker:their heads when reading it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I can imagine that's very challenging, but thrilling at the same time.
Speaker:Moving more onto your daily process now with you know,
Speaker:you about to start a new book.
Speaker:Do you, you know, as a full-time writer, do you have a set schedule
Speaker:for when you go, right, now I start writing now I finished writing.
Speaker:Do you have a certain hours a day or like you said earlier, you
Speaker:try and get a few thousand words.
Speaker:So is it more well, I've done everything else.
Speaker:I've cleaned the house, I better start writing now.
Speaker:So is it structured or is it a bit more loose?
Speaker:It's fairly structured.
Speaker:And that comes from, even though I've been writing full-time for 15 years,
Speaker:I was in a 9 to 5 job before that.
Speaker:And we've got two kids who are now grown up and almost, my daughter's away.
Speaker:She's in uni.
Speaker:My son's 18.
Speaker:He'll be gone to uni in September and he's traveling soon.
Speaker:So we're empty nester s, almost.
Speaker:But my wife works at home, still, because of COVID.
Speaker:So I'm still sort of sit at my desk at nine o'clock.
:30, if I get up that early, do social media crap, and
:then nine o'clock start writing.
:And then usually if I'm actually, it's been a while since I've actually been
:writing a novel at my desk or wherever, but usually once I reached, sort of
:2000 words, whether that's by midday or three in the afternoon I'm, I'm feeling,
:oh, I'm think I'm done for the day.
:Creatively tired a little bit.
:So I tend to try and work from nine to five with maybe at lunchtime
:run or lunch with my wife.
:But then I'll often be working in the evenings.
:My manager is New York.
:My manager, my film manager is LA.
:So if there's any stuff to talk about with them, it's usually
:late afternoons or evenings.
:And, you know, you're always working as a writer.
:That's what I always say.
:It's the only job where I can be sitting at my desk with my feet on
:the desk, staring out the window.
:And my wife says, what are you doing?
:And I can say writing.
:Yeah.
:And it's right.
:you know, I do carry on through the evening as well, sometimes.
:As someone who's been a full-time writer for 15 years, because throughout the
:podcast, I'm speaking to people at various different stages of their career.
:And the thing I've noticed with people who have just made the
:transition from a full-time work to, or part-time work to, full-time writer
:is that they still dress for work.
:And this is I get up and get washed and dressed and stuff like that.
:And I feel for the benefit of, we were both very relaxed.
:They were both in our loungewear, I would generously call our
:t-shirt and joggers and hoodie.
:Was there a time when you dressed more formally for your writing sessions that
:just got more relaxed as you went on?
:Or was it always just a thrill of when you first stopped the day job to go, I'm never
:having to wear a shirt and tie again?
:No, it was straight into jeans and t-shirt, and never pajamas to be honest.
:I do like to get up change and dress comfortable clothing.
:I mean, I started, sort of transitioned from working full time in my day job,
:and then becoming a writer by, I have three and a half years part-time in my
:day job, which was the local authority.
:And then I did become one of the scrappier ones in the office.
:So over the last year with two, I go with the black jeans and polo
:shirt instead of shirt and tie, which most people recommended.
:I always never, where's where's your tie, Lebbon?
:But it was, I transitioned from am smart clothing to scruffy.
:I'm much more comfortable scruffy, to be honest.
:I think it's when you're spending long periods of time, fairly static.
:You do want to be comfortable.
:And I think perceptions that have changed of writers from the start of the show to
:now, and progressing, is that often the cliche gift people think that to get a
:writer is a nice pen, a nice notebook, and I find most writers don't like use pens
:and notebooks, and if they do, they don't want a nice one because it's all just
:scrubbed, scrappy ideas and they go oh, that, pen's too nice to write my divel.
:Or just, I, I can't have a notebook where I can't tear
:the pages out, it's too lovely.
:And so I'm beginning to think that the perfect gift for writers is loungewear.
:A really comfy hoodie or joggers.
:These are the gifts a writer needs.
:Yeah.
:Interesting.
:When I did start writing my novel longhand, I was looking
:for the perfect notebook.
:Because I want you to write with a fountain pen, even
:though my writing's terrible.
:So I bought, I did buy a nice fountain in pen and I Code & Quill notebooks.
:I was the recommended.
:I actually, they had to send them from America.
:I'll probably because of Brexit.
:I'd probably pay a fortune in import fees.
:But if they want to sponsor the show, I'm open to it.
:Yeah.
:Fantastic.
:I bought two of them.
:Filled them up.
:And then the rest of the novel did end up in scruffy little notebooks that I found.
:I've got a bit of a notebook problem, actually.
:I've got dozens of the things lying around, but what writer doesn't?
:Yeah, absolutely.
:Another thing that I'm beginning to realize with writers, that often there
:can be a point during the first draft stage, where often there's the feeling
:that you've forgotten how to write.
:That actually, you're a terrible writer.
:Why am I doing this?
:After 15 years full-time, do you recognize at what state of the book is it?
:Like two thirds of the way through, is it 80%?
:Is it earlier?
:Is there a certain stage that you hit and it's your imposter syndrome stage?
:Yeah, it's usually the middle of the book.
:Almost always guaranteed to hit the middle of the book and you go on in with
:the enthusiasm, great opening, heading towards what's going to be an exciting,
:to use the screenplay structure, act two is always the tough one for me.
:The imposter syndrome rises and falls.
:I'm aware that I've, I'm making a living from writing, which is lovely.
:And I've written lots and lots of novels, some people would say too many.
:But there is, there's always the doubt that you can carry on.
:There's always the fear for me that it'll dry up and I won't get to continue.
:I'm fairly confident I will, because I was talking about my good friend Rio
:Youers, he's such a fantastic writer.
:Rio focuses on a novel at a time and that's it.
:At the moment I'm starting a new novel, I've got an audio project,
:which I'm hoping it's going to happen.
:Over the last couple of days, I've been doing a lot of screenwriting.
:So I've got feature, film, feature scripts out there.
:And a pilot written solo and two collaborative pilots.
:So I've written, so I've got lots of stuff flying around.
:And I'm hoping some of it will land.
:So for me, the imposter syndrome is sort of a couched fear.
:And I think most writers experience that fear.
:I, I know some writers who are very wealthy and they still say oh I'm
:fucking terrified, it's all going to end.
:And I think that's a sort of a healthy attitude in a way,
:that it keeps you on your toes.
:If you get too blasé about what you write, first of all, you end
:up writing the same stuff again and again, which isn't healthy.
:I don't think.
:And then you might just not end up putting the same amount of
:effort into writing something.
:And that, that will show through with your readers.
:So I think it's important.
:For the same reason, I try to make every novel the best one I've ever written.
:Sometimes on the half way through I'm thinking, I'm
:thinking, no, this really isn't.
:But something like The Last Storm, for instance, that is out soon.
:I was writing long hand, and all the way through I was thinking,
:I'm not really sure about this.
:I finished it and I was ready to type it up.
:Oh, I'm really not sure about this.
:And then now I honestly do think it's one of the best novels I've written.
:It's really propulsive and it's cinematic and yeah.
:And people are reading it and loved it.
:So it also goes to show you, you just can't really tell.
:I don't think many writers can be really objective about their work.
:And I guess, sort of, to counteract the imposter syndrome it's just
:reminding yourself of that fact.
:And just giving yourself that little coaching session,
:just talking yourself up.
:Is there any other techniques that you have, if you feel that you
:all maybe like spiraling a bit?
:Where you really get the fear but you can push yourself out of
:it, or is it just more of a, you know, it's temporary and you just
:have to ride through that emotion?
:Yeah.
:I just write through it, to be honest.
:Whether I've got contract for a novel or not, I'm always fairly
:hopeful the thing's going to sell.
:It's the same way as if when you write yourself into a corner,
:you've got plot problems, you write through it and fix it afterwards.
:If you've got the fear and you're worried that things aren't quite going to turn
:out as you hope you just keep going.
:And the old adage, something always comes up.
:In my 15 years full-time, I've had some more ups than downs.
:Sort of writing wise and earning wise.
:So I've been quite lucky to have some Hollywood stuff done and film options.
:But also I write a lot.
:I write a lot more than some writers.
:A lot writers publish a novel every year, 18 months.
:The last couple of years it's been a bit slower.
:I tend to publish a couple of novels a year.
:Whether they be originals or tie-ins or collaborations.
:And work and other stuff as well.
:I'm a working writer, I call myself.
:I'll take on projects because their bread and butter sometimes, like novelizations
:and tie-in work, which I love doing.
:But also, if I had a hundred percent choice, I'd just write my own novels.
:One novel a year for six figures, I'm not that lucky.
:Yeah.
:And how do you find collaborations?
:And are they something that you actively seek out or are they just things that are
:offered and you feel like, yeah, that's the person I really want to work with?
:I, I've never collaborated with somebody that I didn't want
:to work with, that's for sure.
:And generally my main collaborator is Chris Golden in the states.
:Who we've written eight novels together and a screenplay and short stories.
:And we've we got a novella coming out soon, which isn't announced
:yet, but it's going to be amazing.
:It's going to look beautiful.
:And we were really good friends.
:We know each other very well.
:Well enough to say what you did, didn't work, you know.
:And uh, also uh, we know each other well enough to know the
:process of how we collaborate and feel and do it very smoothly.
:And I've collaborated with, Steve Volk and I have written
:a couple of scripts together.
:And Stephen Susco in the States, screenwriter over there, we've
:written a pilot together.
:Uh, I really I do love collaborating because it's, first of all, it's like
:a, it's a sounding board for your work.
:Yeah.
:That's one reason.
:Another reason is you end up writing something you'd never
:would have written on your own.
:Yeah.
:Perfect collaboration is when you create a third voice.
:So we've each got our own personal writing styles.
:As a collaborative team, if your voice is different from two individuals,
:you've created a third voice.
:You've created a third writer in effect, if that works then it's worked.
:And our agent, my agents Howard Moore, in New York.
:At the time of our first collaboration, me and Chris, he wasn't Chris's agent.
:He is now.
:But he read the book and he said, oh, so you wrote the first chapter, Tim.
:I said, no, it was Chris.
:So it worked from the beginning, so I really, I love collaborating.
:It's it's really so exciting and refreshing, especially
:if it's with someone new.
:So I'm always open to collaboration a little bit.
:Yeah.
:And with the different formats, because I think that a lot of people don't
:realize how different the disciplines of writing a short story, a novella,
:a novel, a screenplay are that there are different beats, there's
:different techniques to writing those.
:Is there, with uh, the difference between a novela and a novel?
:I guess as a pantser, do you know that going in, like this is going to be a
:shorter story or this might be a hundred thousand or is it just sometimes you go
:to write a novella, and then it's I'm still going and I've hit 50,000 words.
:This might not be a novella anymore.
:How do you know, like what kind of story length you're going for?
:Yeah.
:I'm usually fairly good at judging that, I think.
:I wrote a novella last year.
:I just decided I've got this really rough scene in my head.
:I'm just going to start writing.
:It'll probably be a novella.
:And it turned out about 25,000 words.
:It's not often I'll sit down to write a new novel and it
:comes in short, for instance.
:Sometimes bit long, but that's just an editing thing.
:I'm quite good at judging the length of, length of things.
:If I'm invited into an anthology to write a short story and they've got a five
:or six thousand word limit, I might hit 7,000 words, but I'm not going to send
:them something that's 17 or 18 thousand.
:A story's as long as it needs to be.
:Yeah.
:And I guess with the 15 years of full-time experience, it's more instinctive now?
:I guess.
:But a short story is a very different beast from the novel, obviously.
:So I'll know if an idea is a short story idea or a novel idea.
:But then sometimes a short story idea can turn into a novel idea.
:Like my novel, The Last Storm.
:I actually wrote a story called Hell Came Down, about 20 years ago, I think.
:Which the sort of core idea of that is the sort of basis of the novel.
:You wrote the short story, but you felt that there was
:more of the story to be told?
:Yeah, partly that, and partly that the central idea could lend
:itself to a bigger scale story.
:Yeah.
:And with screenplay, because you have a very cinematic style of writing.
:I would say that there's a very strong visual core to your
:prose, which I really enjoy.
:And I think it lends itself, which is why you have such great
:novelizations of film and film tie-ins.
:But writing screenplays is very different.
:It's very sparse.
:It's not as descriptive.
:It's very dialogue heavy.
:How do you approach the start of a screenplay when you're mapping that out?
:Because as you said before, you tend to be more scenario based, but a screenplay
:tends to be very character driven.
:And you have that that dialogue.
:So how has your approach to screenplays?
:Lot more, lot more planning.
:When I write screenplays I'm a planner.
:As opposed to pantser, most of the time.
:I do know some screenwriters who will start with a scene where
:it see where it takes them.
:But the ones I've written up to now, certainly if you're a collaboration with
:somebody, there's a lot more planning.
:I think 20% of writing a screenplay is actually sitting
:down writing the first draft.
:Okay.
:80% of it is planning it and thinking about it and making notes and character.
:For me anyway.
:Yeah.
:And plotting scene by scene before you actually write it.
:So actually for me, sitting down and writing the first draft is..
:I can do it really quickly because I know every scene.
:I know the beats.
:I do still feel I'm really learning about screen writing.
:I've written a few screenplays now.
:Quite a few.
:Again, quite few in collaboration, but a few on my own.
:I know I'm enjoying learning a back to it as well.
:I'm enjoying feedback.
:I've got a great manager in LA who he's really focused on story.
:And he's very sharp.
:I've said to him a few times, why aren't you writing screenplays?
:Because he's brilliant.
:But he is, he's very good at taking what I send him and telling me what
:he likes and what he doesn't like.
:And then we brainstorm how to fix it.
:And I have learned through my earliest screenplays.
:And I'm about to learn now, I think.
:It's much more of a collaborative process as well.
:My manager has helped me enormously on the stuff I've written now.
:And it's going out there into the big wide world.
:And if anyone likes any of it, it will be more rewrites.
:I often say, I don't think a story's ever finished.
:You never quite finish writing a novel, I don't think.
:Even when it's published, you'll still change things round in your head
:sometimes and you think, oh, maybe I could have done something different.
:Screenplays very much the same, I think.
:Yeah, and with your manager, it sounds very much it's the equivalent
:of an editor on a, a novel.
:He's, Michael's just, he's embedded out there.
:He knows he's been working in Hollywood for years and years, so
:he knows lots of people out there.
:He knows what people are looking for.
:He knows the sort of stuff that might attract a big producer or streamer,
:or, you know, a film company.
:So he's doing his best to make sure what I've written is going
:to attract some attention.
:He's putting his time in to help me.
:Cause he sold loads of stuff, he's very experienced.
:He's read, god knows how many screenplays he's read.
:So I do still, like I said, feel that I'm at the beginning of screenwriting career.
:But also it's, and I love it.
:Cause it's just, it is just another form of storytelling.
:I think as a writer, I've always just liked to think I'm a storyteller.
:I happen to write, I'm sort of known as a novelist, I guess.
:But I love writing novellas and short stories.
:I'm hoping to get into some audiodrama soon.
:Yeah, just spreading dtorytelling wings.
:I love telling you the stories and whatever format I can get
:to do it in is, is good for me.
:So with the audio dramas, is that something that you've just
:started writing that format?
:Haven't actually started writing anything yet, it's like a pitch.
:It's a pitch that I've got out there which I'm hoping is going to land soon.
:I can't really say much about it, but it could be quite exciting.
:Yeah, absolutely.
:Because it is it's its own discipline and with podcasts now, like audio
:dramas really getting a resurgence.
:So..
:Yeah, they're massive.
:And it will be even, it would be different even from screenplays
:because you can't see anything.
:All through audio.
:It's a real, it's a real challenge, but I still like challenging
:myself sometimes as well.
:It's another way of trying to, try and stop writing becoming
:stale by another route.
:And that's why I've always got several projects on the go.
:Different novels, short stories, screenplays, and the audio at the moment.
:And have you, to get into the mindset, have you been listening
:to a lot of audio dramas?
:Yeah, quite a few.
:I love Sandman.
:I mean, Dirk's great.
:Dirk Maggs.
:And the Alien stuff he's done is just fantastic as well.
:The adaptation he did of Out of the Shadows, my novel, was just amazing.
:And that was all Dirk.
:I wrote the novel but Dirk did the adaptation and directed it.
:And Rutger Hauer was in it, how cool is that?
:That is very cool.
:Yeah, it's amazing.
:I often get emails or tweets about that.
:And people saying, oh, I loved it.
:And I always say it was, this was Dirk.
:But I'm enjoying listening to them and like we were chatting about before we
:started recording, I'm getting into listen to podcasts and things like that as well.
:And trying to, I'm past half a century now, so I'm trying to keep
:up with current trends and keep aware of what's going on out there, so
:that I can keep writing basically.
:Well, I think the technology is certainly advanced, but it does feel
:like things have gone in cycles.
:Because obviously before TV and cinema really took off, the radio plays, famously
:Orson Welles War of the Worlds adaptation, they had a huge place in society.
:And I think it's now, people are commuting and they got the headphones in.
:And it's just listening to something rather than holding a
:book or having their heads down.
:People want to see the world.
:And yeah, so we're looking around a lot more, being in their environment,
:rather than neck pain of constantly looking down at their phone or their
:Kindle, their book, or whatever.
:That it is interesting how it's developed and how, obviously myself as a podcaster,
:it is a real way to touch people and that the audience is growing and growing.
:So yeah, it's a good market to get into.
:And I really hope it takes off.
:I'm sure if it does, it'll be excellent.
:Well, it's quite exciting.
:I think if what I'm hoping happens, then there'll be some excited fans.
:Oh great.
:Not for me.
:Something else, but
:Oh okay.
:I see see see.
:Yes.
:I would love to uh, sort of like, we can revisit in a few years.
:Have you back on the show.
:Yeah.
:One of the things, cause you mentioned people tweeting about
:uh your work and stuff like that.
:What's your opinion of social media as a writer?
:Do you feel that Twitter is a useful tool for writers?
:I've got a real love, hate relationship with social media, I must say.
:So I, yeah, I get drawn in.
:I spend too much time on social media and I'm very aware of that.
:I'm trying not to.
:But I get drawn into stuff and I think I'm getting better at it.
:I tend not to get into arguments on social media.
:It's ,what's the point?
:Yeah.
:People shouting into a hurricane.
:I mean, my publishers will always say, you need a social media
:presence and I've always had one.
:Like, Facebook and Twitter I use and I'm being told I should be on Instagram.
:So I need to learn about how to use that.
:I think it is important.
:It it's certainly been much more important the last couple of years.
:Cause it's such an easy way, easier way to keep yourself as part of the
:writing community in a reading community.
:And, I made friends on social media and I got, actually got friends
:that I'd never met on social media.
:You know, we regard ourselves as friends.
:It's a strange thing, really.
:Yeah, but it's, I do think it's too easy to get drawn
:into stuff that doesn't matter.
:The amount of times I've written a tweet, being angry at Partygate
:or whatever the hell it might be, and then realized what's the point?
:If I write this tweet and put it out there, it's not going to change anything.
:It doesn't matter.
:Nobody cares that I'm angry at Boris Johnson or whatever might be happening.
:So I just delete it and then go about my day.
:Without any stress.
:Uh, so it's definitely a networking tool rather than a promotion tool for you?
:I guess it's a bit of both really.
:I self-publish some of my older books as e-books through Kindle.
:And yeah, if I knew how to promote them, I'd probably sell more of them.
:I do tweet about them.
:It is a promotional tool for getting the word out there about
:books, new books, and new deals.
:It's also, I think it's more important that it's word of mouth tool.
:So I can go and talk about my new novel ad nauseum and people
:soon get pissed off with me.
:Just seeing posts from me about my new book.
:But the great thing about social media is the social part of it.
:Where people start talking about books they've loved and how great they are.
:And then other people see that and it spreads the word.
:I think it's more useful in that way.
:But it is, it's also useful and quite important having a sort
:of a public face as a writer.
:Having somewhere where people could communicate with you.
:And I like, I like that.
:I like hearing what writers, what readers thinking like work.
:Like I say, love, hate relationship.
:I'll always be on it.
:I've had breaks from social media of a few weeks at a time.
:And it's felt nice, but I'm always drawn back in.
:I don't know many writers that don't use it, to be honest.
:Not many at all.
:You know, you can be Chris Evans, and not have the phone and not be on social media.
:But then have 15 assistants around you.
:I haven't got the luxury of having an assistant.
:Last two questions.
:Firstly, it's my belief that writers continuing to grow and develop their
:writing with each story that they write.
:Obviously your last novel was written longhand, but was there anything
:else within the writing of that story that you feel you'll now apply
:to the book you're about to write?
:Was that something that you learned about yourself or about your writing
:style or technique that you think this, I need to do this next time?
:Um, that's an interesting question.
:I'm not entirely sure, to be honest.
:The fact that it's thematically the new novel is, has got the climate change
:link, which I guess shows importance of writing about stuff that interests
:you and worries you, scares you.
:The popular question for a horror writer is what scares you.
:And I, I did have a dream last night about a flying spider,
:which scared the shit out of me.
:But generally stuff like that doesn't really scare me.
:What scares me is my family in peril and the world in peril,
:which it is with climate change.
:I'm writing about what scares me.
:And that isn't always the case, I don't think.
:But I think with Eden and The Last Storm and the novel I'm about to start writing,
:I am talking about stuff that worries me and scares me and worries me for my kids.
:So I've always had, the link between humanity and nature has always
:been a thing through my books.
:And I guess the last few years when climate change and global warming is
:being thrust to the fore more than ever before it's become strong, stronger theme.
:And I agree with you, I think, I can't remember quite how you put it.
:Improve, adapt, change.
:So I always always want to think, if you have ask a writer, what's your best book,
:the answer should always be the next one.
:Yeah.
:Because I've got favorites out of what I've written, but I always want to
:think that my best books ahead of me.
:And lastly is the one piece of advice you've been told or read that
:consciously helps you with your writing?
:So one thing that you find yourself returning to that helps
:you with the way that you write?
:I think I'd say write what you want to read.
:Because in doing that, you're telling a story that excites you
:as a reader, as well as a writer.
:And that, you can also go back to the idea that, like I said earlier, I speed
:up writing towards the end of a novel, because I want to know what happens.
:I know roughly what happens, but not necessarily who's going to live and
:die and how the story is going to end.
:So once I finished the novel, then it's published.
:I'll never pick up my own novel and read it again because by then I've
:read it 54 times and I'm sick of it.
:Which is another reason to write something that you enjoy reading, because
:you're going to be reading it a lot.
:Yeah.
:Like you mentioned earlier, drafts.
:Draft after draft.
:I feel I do two or three large drafts of a novel, but there's those loads of
:tinkering that goes on in the meantime.
:So yeah, write what you want to read.
:Because you're excited about it, you might be passionate about it, and it's
:a story that you want to tell people.
:That's great.
:We'll end there, Tim.
:And just thank you very much for being my guest this week.
:It's been great.
:I thank you very much.
:And that was a real writing process of Tim Lebbon.
:I'm very pleased to say Tim's latest book, The Last Storm comes out this
:Tuesday, the 5th of July, 2022.
:Of course, if you're catching up with this in the future, it's already
:out and you know, it's a great book.
:It might be the book that brought you to listen to this interview.
:In that case, hello!
:Hope you enjoyed it.
:For everyone else listening to this on the day, it goes out all or shortly after.
:Get on buying this book.
:If you can, pre-order it and get it this week.
:The future audience knows how good this book is, but they can't tell you
:because we don't have the technology to communicate across time that way.
:However, trust me and trust Tim when we say it's the best thing he's ever written.
:And he's written some fucking good stuff.
:I'll leave Tim's website and social media links in the show notes.
:He has now joined Instagram.
:So do go and like his posts and see the man in all his beauty.
:As for me, this is the end of season two.
:The season that almost broke me.
:Honestly, a sincere thank you to all my listeners, but I was not
:expecting so many of you so soon.
:This podcast is a production team of one, and I have learned the edges of my limits.
:So I'm pleased to say there will be a shorter season
:three and it will go beyond.
:But now I need to take a summer holiday, read some books, and discover some
:amazing authors that spark my curiosity in how they write what they write.
:You can find me on Twitter most of the time @therealwriting1.
:But until the autumn, look after yourselves.
