The Real Writing Process of Adam Simcox
Tom Pepperdine interviews Adam Simcox about his writing process. Adam discusses his favourite writing spots, the difference in writing scripts and novels, and why he will never collaborate on writing a book with his wife.
You can follow Adam on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/adamsimcox
Or follow him on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/simcoxadam/
And if you want to check out Mike and Zoe's discussion of the Rendlesham Forest Incident on the Stories of Strangeness podcast, you can listen here: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/episode-15-the-rendlesham-forest-incident/id1515122258?i=1000501583639
And you can find more information on our upcoming guests on the following links:
https://twitter.com/Therealwriting1
https://www.instagram.com/realwritingpro
https://www.facebook.com/therealwritingprocesspodcast
Transcript
Hello, and welcome to the Real Writing Process.
Speaker:I'm your host, Tom Pepperdine.
Speaker:And this week, my guest is the filmmaker and novelist.
Speaker:Adam Simcox.
Speaker:Adam came to my attention when I picked up his debut novel, the dying squad.
Speaker:Which not only has a killer first line, but a fantastic opening page.
Speaker:And then a brilliant supernatural crime thriller for the rest of the book.
Speaker:I caught up with Adam as he was beginning the promo for the sequel
Speaker:called The Generation Killer, which is also a fantastic book.
Speaker:And Adam invited me to meet him in the private member's bar of Picturehouse
Speaker:Central in that they're London.
Speaker:Now, am I a sucker for glamorous locations?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Did I squeal like the Yokel I am when I saw a famous landmark out the window?
Speaker:Also, yes.
Speaker:And did I leave such a childish and unprofessional noise in the
Speaker:interview for your amusement?
Speaker:Of course I did.
Speaker:But finally, before I play the jingle to introduce the interview, do I
Speaker:have one last duty tidbit for you?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:So I'm here with Adam Simcox.
Speaker:Hello, Adam.
Speaker:Hello.
Speaker:Good to be here.
Speaker:It's very good to be here.
Speaker:And we will talk about the location in a second, but my first question
Speaker:as always, what are we drinking?
Speaker:We are drinking quite unusually for me, Coca-Cola.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's a little bit of a hangover drink.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So I was at a gig last night.
Speaker:Oh, very nice.
Speaker:Went see Phoebe bridges.
Speaker:Oh, wow.
Speaker:And I could have slunk into the after party because it
Speaker:was a final night at the tour.
Speaker:Nice.
Speaker:But such as my commitment to the podcast game.
Speaker:Oh.
Speaker:I went straight home, mate.
Speaker:I went straight home.
Speaker:This is more important.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Oh, I appreciate your sacrifice and yeah, I hope it's worth it.
Speaker:And we are not on Zoom.
Speaker:We are in person.
Speaker:This is exciting.
Speaker:It's glorious, I think it's my first ever one of these where I've done it in person.
Speaker:Oh, excellent.
Speaker:And you've chosen the location.
Speaker:Would you like to describe to the listeners where we are?
Speaker:I have.
Speaker:We are in the Picturehouse Central Member's Bar, which is
Speaker:in Piccadilly circus, which is one of my regular writing haunts.
Speaker:It's like probably the best value members bar in the world.
Speaker:Like you, you pay like a hundred pound for the year.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And you get four free single tickets and it's overlooking Piccadilly circus.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You see a bit of Leicester Square there.
Speaker:It's just got one of those places that got a good vibe.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's that is Big Ben, isn't it?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's just the top of big Ben.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Poking out above the building.
Speaker:Uh, yeah.
Speaker:That was such a yokel in the big city moment, wasn't it?
Speaker:It was like, is that big Ben?
Speaker:But yes.
Speaker:Um, So in central London with a wondrous view.
Speaker:Very comfy um, armchairs and yeah, our own private bar and music that
Speaker:I will do my best to not have to pay royalty for and will filter out.
Speaker:So yeah.
Speaker:So how long has this been one of your writing haunts?
Speaker:That's a really good question.
Speaker:I tell you what, pretty much since it opened.
Speaker:And it was one of my genuine traumas of lockdown that I couldn't come
Speaker:to places like this to write.
Speaker:Cause I hate writing at home.
Speaker:Hate it.
Speaker:So this was what, this was right from the very start, it's been one of my
Speaker:favorite places to come in London.
Speaker:It is one of my top three places in London.
Speaker:This bar.
Speaker:Well, if you're saying top three, I need to know the other two.
Speaker:In terms, in terms of writing, there's also Foyles.
Speaker:Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Top floor of Foyles.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:In Charing Cross Road, it's a fantastic little writing spot.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:It's really fucking expensive, that place.
Speaker:Hot chocolate is four quid.
Speaker:Four quid!
Speaker:But it's a again, it's a place with a great sort of vibe to it.
Speaker:The other one is want like a local cafe to me, their hot chocolates
Speaker:are significantly cheaper.
Speaker:And I don't mind give giving them the money, cause it's like a local business.
Speaker:It's funny how a place, it won't even always be like the poshest
Speaker:place or the slickest place.
Speaker:You just got a good feel to it.
Speaker:It's not great.
Speaker:It's busy, but it's not crazy busy.
Speaker:I like a bit of energy and it's funny how that works out.
Speaker:But this is probably my number one.
Speaker:Okay, cool.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And so you've mentioned it twice there, I gotta ask, is hot
Speaker:chocolate your writing drink?
Speaker:It's either hot chocolate or decaf, I say.
Speaker:I had to kick caffeine, with apart from rare instances like this,
Speaker:cause I had this ringing ear thing.
Speaker:Oh wow.
Speaker:And caffeine makes it worse.
Speaker:But I need, I spend my life in cafes, so I need to drink something.
Speaker:So hot chocolate and decaf lattes are my gateway drug.
Speaker:They're my kind of come down from the caffeine high.
Speaker:As someone who writes about a lot of death and murder, those are very
Speaker:comforting drinks, it sounds like.
Speaker:They are.
Speaker:Should be like straight old bourbon at 9:00 AM or like arsenic.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, I think like the crime community, which I guess I'm in now and I've
Speaker:got to know over the last couple of years, like they're nicest people.
Speaker:They really are.
Speaker:I guess it's like horror, the horror community.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Like they, they're kind of nicest people in the world.
Speaker:If someone, if a dead body turns up, it's not gonna be someone in the horror
Speaker:community, or the crime community.
Speaker:Look at those romantic novelists.
Speaker:They're the shifty ones.
Speaker:You really gotta look at.
Speaker:Yeah, I think crime writers are a nice breed, on the whole.
Speaker:I think the best crime novelists, if you really understand the, the human
Speaker:frailty and like human flaws of people.
Speaker:And I think you can only really be effective in that if you've worked
Speaker:on yourself to like deal with that.
Speaker:I think, yeah.
Speaker:I think that's a good point.
Speaker:I think that's a good point.
Speaker:What I found with crime writers as well, is there's not loads of 21 year olds.
Speaker:There's not many kind of sickenly successful at a younger age people.
Speaker:Mostly they're kind of like late thirties to mid forties.
Speaker:It's come to 'em a little bit later in life, seen a bit more of life.
Speaker:They've had a few more knocks and bruises, so they're maybe
Speaker:not take it quite seriously.
Speaker:As some like literati 22 year old breaking through.
Speaker:Bit more cynical and weary.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Nice.
Speaker:And I was gonna ask you sort of with, you know, identifying your genre, is
Speaker:that, was that always something that you aspired to write in that genre or as you
Speaker:say, is like coming to it later in life?
Speaker:Was it something that just, you found yourself being drawn to?
Speaker:I dunno, with genre it's funny.
Speaker:I don't really think of myself as writing in one genre because I, I
Speaker:wrote some books before The Dying Squad that nothing really happened with.
Speaker:And they were three different genres.
Speaker:One was science fiction.
Speaker:Another one was like a black comedy/sports book.
Speaker:And the third one, was a bit similar to Dying Squad, it was quite pulpy.
Speaker:So I don't really think of myself as writing in one particular genre.
Speaker:With Dying Squad, it's you could make a good case that it's fantasy or you
Speaker:could make a good case that it's crime.
Speaker:To me, it's a crime thriller, with like fantasy flashy, fantasy go faster stripes.
Speaker:Other people, I know that like those do straight crime think this ain't crime.
Speaker:But to me it is.
Speaker:To me it is.
Speaker:No, that's good.
Speaker:And when you are coming up with your ideas, do you find it's the crime
Speaker:itself that is your hook is your way in?
Speaker:Cuz sometimes it's the world is like, oh, what kind of thing would happen here?
Speaker:Or a character comes out.
Speaker:I was just wondering what draws you into a story?
Speaker:I think the crime itself is the main hook.
Speaker:And the main bit that interests me is, 1.
Speaker:Meshing like the fantastical with the real, because I think all these
Speaker:books, despite their themes are very much set in the real world.
Speaker:Like the first book is set in rural Lincolnshire.
Speaker:Which hasn't been massively written about, but I grew up there, so I know the place.
Speaker:The second book is set in Manchester, which I used to live, live in Manchester.
Speaker:I love that city, and also Tokyo.
Speaker:The third book, which is our next year, is set in Berlin.
Speaker:Oh, wow.
Speaker:So they're all kind of places I know quite well and all places that
Speaker:are just like rich to dig out from.
Speaker:That's really important to me.
Speaker:The other important thing is , I love the investigation bit, I
Speaker:love the solving the crime bit.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Because I never, when I start these books, I never know who done it.
Speaker:Or who's behind the crime or why they're behind it.
Speaker:Like, I'm doing the investigation as I'm writing it.
Speaker:Which in some ways is an enormous pain in the ass.
Speaker:because just like a normal investigation, you just go down a
Speaker:blind alley and like slam into it.
Speaker:And you have to backtrack and rewrite, which I guess you
Speaker:wouldn't get if I was a planner.
Speaker:But then even I've tried planning a couple of things, then I just
Speaker:go off pieste anyway with it.
Speaker:So yeah, in terms of the bit I find exciting, I like doing the investigation.
Speaker:I like working out who'd done it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And to me, a twist is always much better if it's a surprise to the writer.
Speaker:Then it will be a surprise to the reader.
Speaker:If you try and engineer it from the start, I think it feels a little bit forced.
Speaker:Yeah, with the project you're working on at the moment, are you like
Speaker:editing that or are you on a new book?
Speaker:I will be editing that soon.
Speaker:I've turned it in.
Speaker:That'll be, I'll be editing within the next few months.
Speaker:So I'm a little bit ahead.
Speaker:So The Dying Squad, it was like a three book deal.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So the second one comes out in August 2022.
Speaker:The third one will come out next summer, yeah.
Speaker:And then I've actually written what would be my fourth book,
Speaker:which will be a standalone.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I've already written that I, I wrote it between books two and three,
Speaker:Dying Squad books two and three.
Speaker:So I've got a bit of downtime.
Speaker:So I've actually been writing a couple of scripts over the last few months.
Speaker:And they could be future books.
Speaker:They might be something else.
Speaker:It's actually a really, if you've got the time, it's a really good way of working
Speaker:because you are essentially writing a super detailed breakdown of a book.
Speaker:It's thinner than a book, you know, you don't have the interiority
Speaker:or prose or anything like that.
Speaker:But it lets you stress test the story.
Speaker:It tells you where it goes wrong.
Speaker:It tells you where you need to fix it.
Speaker:It tells you if the twists work.
Speaker:I mean that element of it is still the same, you know, you're finding
Speaker:the story and like what it takes to unexpected turn, you still get
Speaker:that kinda little thrill from it.
Speaker:And I think it's really good in terms of, does this work?
Speaker:Because you should be able to write a short story on the
Speaker:back of a McDonald's wrapper.
Speaker:And if it's good.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So it's really effective for that, I think.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And um, with the books that have been published, did those
Speaker:go through a script process?
Speaker:No, I didn't, I didn't do it with that.
Speaker:So, The Dying Squad was like a fast write.
Speaker:I think The Dying Squad took me three months to write it, which was really fast.
Speaker:And Generation Killer took longer just because...
Speaker:it wasn't really difficult second book syndrome.
Speaker:I think it's easier if you write in a series.
Speaker:I think it's harder if you have to write a second book and start from scratch and
Speaker:do new characters and new blah, blah.
Speaker:I think it's easier if you are building on an existing world, but there is still some
Speaker:things you, you look back on the wealth of second books in a series and you just
Speaker:think about the ones that didn't work.
Speaker:And you don't wanna fall into that trap.
Speaker:So you you have to keep what works about the first one, but
Speaker:you have to make it fresh again.
Speaker:You have to have new ideas in there.
Speaker:You have to send the characters on a different personality path, whatever.
Speaker:And you have to make it exciting.
Speaker:There's a lot of moving parts and I was aware that it was a three book
Speaker:deal and I had a third book, so I had to set the third book up as well,
Speaker:because these aren't really standalones.
Speaker:They're kind of, they're all, intermeshed, certainly the first three will be.
Speaker:So those were the challenges writing the second one.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And definitely with The Generation Killer, the scope is far far broader.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:There's a lot bigger stakes.
Speaker:The stakes are very personal in book one, but it's very much the
Speaker:stakes of the world in book two.
Speaker:That, that's a great way of looking at it.
Speaker:It did feel a bit at times like I was like an indie filmmaker on the first one.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And then like Warner Brothers had just given me 300 million
Speaker:dollars to make the second one.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I mean you, so really you look at the first one, it's like, yeah, that's
Speaker:a 5 to 25 million indie movie and the second one's like, no, this is
Speaker:a massive Hollywood blockbuster.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I don't quite know why I did it like that.
Speaker:It's just, I guess it was almost a bit of wish fulfillment.
Speaker:It's if I was making a film, that's why I'd wanna do it.
Speaker:Yeah, I think like with the first book.
Speaker:The kind of the film touchstones were like Shane Meadows.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And Line Of Duty, and like noiry local crime.
Speaker:Whereas the second book was more like Heat and Seven.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:They were my, they were like my touch stones.
Speaker:And the third one, I guess, is a little bit of a mix between the two.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Because there's only so big you can get before it gets ridiculous.
Speaker:Joe's in space in his book.
Speaker:Uh, so, you know, as a filmmaker who has been working a lot before that
Speaker:you started writing these books now going back and writing scripts, do
Speaker:you feel that the books have changed your approach or your outlook or
Speaker:the way you approach your script?
Speaker:It's a great question, actually that.
Speaker:Yes and no.
Speaker:I think writing scripts before I'd written the books taught me more.
Speaker:So the things that it really taught me and making films was like pace and tightness.
Speaker:If you're making any sort of film, whether it's like a feature or a commercial film,
Speaker:wherever, like each shot has to make the person wanna watch the next shot.
Speaker:If you don't do that, you failed.
Speaker:You've screwed it.
Speaker:So that taught me a lot about pace and the economy, when I've switched back
Speaker:to doing novels, I think I've still got a little bit when I'm writing a
Speaker:script as if I'm making this film.
Speaker:So it is getting out the mindset of it doesn't really matter that
Speaker:I can put that group of extras in.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Because it wouldn't be me responsible for getting them and ringing
Speaker:around mates, just like trying to get this group of people there.
Speaker:It's keeping that that, that bigness that I've got in the books when I translate
Speaker:to scripts, which I think I've done, but there's a lot more similarities than
Speaker:differences between novels and scripts.
Speaker:It is a different discipline, but it's not really.
Speaker:It's not, if you're a novelist, I'm gonna be a plumber.
Speaker:It's still writing.
Speaker:All the main bits that make a good book, make a good script.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:There is more show than tell in a script, but there's not loads more.
Speaker:And it's still the things you need to get right in a novel are the
Speaker:things you need to get in a script.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Interesting characters, plot development, paciness.
Speaker:Why does this deserve my time?
Speaker:Sort of thing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And you mentioned it, how you're not much of a planner.
Speaker:With the scripts you've been working on recently, is that been the same sort of
Speaker:thing that you'll discover as you go?
Speaker:I've yeah, I have actually, the last one I worked on, I did plan it out a bit.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Not all the way through, but I was struggling on it a bit.
Speaker:So when I'd finished for the day I would plan out what I was going
Speaker:to do in the next writing session.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So just one day ahead.
Speaker:And sometimes it changed.
Speaker:It'd been a long time since I'd written a script and I didn't have quite
Speaker:the same confidence that I, there was sitting down writing a novel.
Speaker:So I almost needed to hold my own hand a little bit on it and say, okay,
Speaker:that's what I'm gonna do the next day.
Speaker:Cause I think writer's block.
Speaker:I know some people say they get writer's block, that's a luxury I can't afford.
Speaker:I've gotta earn money.
Speaker:You don't have writer's block if you're like, working in McDonald's,
Speaker:or doing any other number of work or working as a nurse or a doctor,
Speaker:you've just gotta do the fucking job.
Speaker:That's not a luxury I can afford.
Speaker:I can't just afford to sit and stare into space for eight hours.
Speaker:So yeah, I, that just kept me honest.
Speaker:If I knew what I was doing the next day, then that just
Speaker:took the pressure out of it.
Speaker:Yeah, and on that as well, sort of, I want to go a bit more into
Speaker:your daily writing schedule.
Speaker:As someone who doesn't write at home and you know, this being a number one writing
Speaker:spot, but also having a couple of others.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Do you treat it like a nine to five where you have a commute setting, you get
Speaker:there for a certain time and do you plan to write for a certain number of hours?
Speaker:Or do you have a word count or just like certain number of scenes?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:How do you map out your day?
Speaker:A hundred percent, yeah.
Speaker:It is about, one of the appeals is like, I get dressed, I take the
Speaker:kids to school, I get on the train, I go to a place, I do my words.
Speaker:It is a job.
Speaker:It's a cool job, but it is a job.
Speaker:And if you are, I think where people come unstuck a bit at the start is they're
Speaker:expecting it to be this sort of back flippingly wonderful experience every
Speaker:day where they're one with the muse.
Speaker:That's just not the reality.
Speaker:Now you will have those days where it's just genuinely exciting.
Speaker:You'll have a lot more where it's just a bit of a fucking slog and you've
Speaker:gotta sit down and do the words.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Cause no one else is gonna do 'em for you.
Speaker:And I find that whenever it feels really good, you've had a brilliant
Speaker:day, it's never quite as good as you remember when you read back.
Speaker:But also conversely, whenever you think, oh, this is terrible.
Speaker:It's never that bad either.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:There's always like a middle ground that it's in.
Speaker:So yeah, it is about coming down, getting the words down.
Speaker:If I've got four or five hours, which if I'm doing like school runs or I've got a
Speaker:shoot or whatever, that's very achievable.
Speaker:I I would look for 1500 words.
Speaker:I know some people struggle with that, but to me I've got a lot
Speaker:more time than a lot of people.
Speaker:I owe it to myself.
Speaker:And those people that don't have as much time to like get the work done.
Speaker:Even if it's rubbish.
Speaker:I'd say very much a cliche, but it's a lot easier to fix something on
Speaker:the page than yeah fix a blank page.
Speaker:No, absolutely.
Speaker:And are you someone who edits as they go?
Speaker:Is it something that that you start your writing day reviewing what you
Speaker:wrote the day before, maybe tweaking a few things or do you like to go, I'm
Speaker:gonna write X amount of words, maybe 10,000 words and then do a review?
Speaker:It honestly, it changes from project to project and it
Speaker:depends on how well it's going.
Speaker:If it's, I feel uncertain of it and I don't feel it's going that
Speaker:well, I won't stop, I'll just keep going to get to the end.
Speaker:Because I think that's where you could come a bit unstuck.
Speaker:If I'm feeling calm about it and confident then yeah, I'll probably
Speaker:spend the first 45 minutes just reading what I've done before.
Speaker:It honestly changes from project to project.
Speaker:Um, Sometimes I think, particularly if you're not totally sure about
Speaker:the idea, it feels quite fragile.
Speaker:I think it can be detrimental to look back too much on it.
Speaker:If you're confident, this is the right thing, then yeah, you can do that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And when it's actually then sent to someone to read it and edit,
Speaker:who's the first person to read it after you've finished the project?
Speaker:Usually my wife, who is also a writer.
Speaker:And yeah, like we've been working on each other's stuff for quite a long time.
Speaker:It's always been a part of our relationship.
Speaker:So yeah, she's still the one I want to impress.
Speaker:She's still the one.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I want to be just, you just tell me it's good.
Speaker:We do like, we critique each other's stuff.
Speaker:I really enjoy that.
Speaker:I think she would say that I'm worse at receiving feedback than her,
Speaker:but we are pretty good on that.
Speaker:Well, we are pretty honest and brutal.
Speaker:I mean, she's, she's writing this thing at the moment.
Speaker:I have more I guess like arrogance is not the word, but
Speaker:I have more self-belief in her.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But this thing she's writing at the moment, it's so good.
Speaker:And it's gonna be, it's gonna be a monster.
Speaker:It's gonna be a monster hit.
Speaker:So it's just about my, I want critique it, also I wanna say like, you need
Speaker:to tell other person it's really good.
Speaker:I think that's also really important at the start, you wanna give what doesn't
Speaker:work it's important to give what does.
Speaker:Cause they are, we are the first person to seeing each other stuff.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And how is that?
Speaker:Because obviously, yeah.
Speaker:You are both established writers but write very different types of work.
Speaker:And yeah, she's coming along with some great success at the moment.
Speaker:So are you, cuz you're not in direct competition.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:But, would you say like her writing informs your writing and vice versa?
Speaker:Or is it just it's nice to read, but I wanna do my own thing?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:In a lot of ways we've got similar tastes, in terms of like TV or film.
Speaker:There's, There's very few times where I would like really love something
Speaker:and she would hate it and vice versa.
Speaker:Yeah, but we do write very different things, but all I
Speaker:mean, good's good and bad's bad.
Speaker:And like her, You Had Me At Halloumi, which she's got out at the moment.
Speaker:That's just a great read.
Speaker:Like I'm not obviously the target audience for a romantic comedy set
Speaker:in Greece, but it's just, it's great.
Speaker:I can really admire the writing or admire how she structured it.
Speaker:I can see how good she's got and it's quite thrilling to see yeah that.
Speaker:But yeah we are pretty brutal with each other.
Speaker:I mean, we are, we are very straight talking with each other.
Speaker:Doesn't work, it doesn't work.
Speaker:Definitely Dying Squad is not something Kirsty would normally read.
Speaker:But she can, it's almost good in that respect.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Because if she's out of the genre, so she can just gimme quite a
Speaker:clinical what doesn't work in terms of the story and what does.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I'm guessing that we are not gonna get a collaboration, sort of crossover?
Speaker:No, we're fucking not.
Speaker:I, I think some people, I really admire people that, couples that
Speaker:can work together like that.
Speaker:And we've done a couple of films together and it just didn't work.
Speaker:Cause we were both doing, wanting to do the same job.
Speaker:And I was not anywhere near tolerant enough.
Speaker:I was the bad guy in that situation, I'm sure.
Speaker:No, like we work, collaborate very well in other ways.
Speaker:But in terms of, I just think when you're both trying to do the same thing.
Speaker:Yeah, it doesn't work very well.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And we're back post jingle with a new drink.
Speaker:We're on the comfort drink now so you've got the decaf latte, we are on the coffee.
Speaker:So yeah, what I want um, talk now is actually more about your process
Speaker:uh, with the story, obviously we've covered that, you know, it's the crime
Speaker:that sort of initiates the story.
Speaker:Are there elements of fleshing out the world that you find challenging?
Speaker:Is it quite hard to do authentic characterization?
Speaker:Does that come quite easy?
Speaker:Is that quite fun to do?
Speaker:And the world building, how long does that take?
Speaker:Is that something that you plan out a lot of the world beforehand?
Speaker:Or is it just on the fly, you're inventing the mythology?
Speaker:Uh, Yeah, it is on the fly.
Speaker:I did a book club once and they couldn't quite believe that I'd be
Speaker:insane enough to just try and world build to the extent I do on the fly.
Speaker:And it is, it is insane.
Speaker:even though all there's all these fantastic elements, I
Speaker:always try and make it real.
Speaker:I try and make it like a tangible thing that people will recognize.
Speaker:You find you're good at some things and some things come
Speaker:easily and some things are harder.
Speaker:The world building is one of the harder things to do.
Speaker:And I think most of my edit notes, when it got to the edit stage with
Speaker:Gollancz, were about world building.
Speaker:And with my agent as well, "explain this, how does that work?
Speaker:That seems inconsistent with something else you've done."
Speaker:Because it doesn't matter what rules you write, you just have to stick to 'em.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You can't break them.
Speaker:I saw something recently and it was like a supernatural crime thing and it just broke
Speaker:its own rules and really wound me up.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Like you have to, if you don't want the reader of viewer to feel cheated,
Speaker:you have to stick to the rules.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And no matter how weird or crazy they are.
Speaker:So the, yeah, like I love dialogue, that's easy.
Speaker:When it's a dialogue day, I think I'm gonna be done in two hours.
Speaker:When it's a world building day or if I'm writing action, you just
Speaker:think this is gonna be a slog.
Speaker:This is gonna be hard work.
Speaker:Yeah, each word is gonna fight me on this.
Speaker:That's just the way it is.
Speaker:So with the challenges of world building, is it, you are just strongly reliant
Speaker:on editors that pick stuff up or do you actually now have the murder whiteboard
Speaker:with the bits of string and pictures?
Speaker:Like, how do you keep track of it all?
Speaker:I should have that.
Speaker:It was good in a way, because I'd pretty much written the second book
Speaker:before the first book came out.
Speaker:So I could go back and retrofit little bits.
Speaker:The same with the third book as well, because I'd written that
Speaker:before the second book came out.
Speaker:I think if there'd been a bigger gap, I would've really struggled and that
Speaker:it would've been better to plan it.
Speaker:But in terms of the world building, you can let your imagination run
Speaker:wild, which is brilliant in a way.
Speaker:But when it is, you are trying to write a realistic urban fantasy novel,
Speaker:you have to reign yourself in a bit.
Speaker:And it's, again, it's getting that balance of bringing loads
Speaker:of new ideas into each one.
Speaker:But not like gorging it in ideas.
Speaker:You read some stuff that's so brilliantly inventive, but I feel like I can't
Speaker:catch my breath because there's a new thing coming half a page up.
Speaker:I think you need time to let it simmer a bit and linger and let the idea soak in.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And with the challenges of world building, is there an appeal
Speaker:to write more real world stuff?
Speaker:I like, I definitely, with the Dying Squad series, particularly I like the real world
Speaker:stuff is the bit I really like writing.
Speaker:It's the stuff I enjoy the most.
Speaker:It's the biggest challenge because you are in the real world, there are
Speaker:very specific rules you adhere to.
Speaker:Yeah, but it's the bits that just all set in The Pen, which is
Speaker:like the afterlife purgatory bit.
Speaker:I'm always trying to balance that with thinking, oh, this is just all made up.
Speaker:This doesn't make any sense.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:This is fucking nonsense.
Speaker:It's trying to keep that under control a little bit and trying to make that
Speaker:as realistic as the bits that set in like a dingy part of Manchester.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Cuz obviously the real world bits are based on like locations you've
Speaker:actually been to and know, is the fantasy world building and sticking to
Speaker:locations, a real aversion to research?
Speaker:Is research something that you would never do?
Speaker:Actually, I mean, Tokyo, for instance, I haven't been to Tokyo.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I was intending to go to Tokyo.
Speaker:But for the pandemic, so I had to research Tokyo.
Speaker:I had to make that as realistic as possible.
Speaker:And I like, it's my way in actually.
Speaker:Finding a real place and maybe doing a little bit of a backstory
Speaker:about certain area of it.
Speaker:That's my way in.
Speaker:I find into certainly that start a chapters.
Speaker:The third book, which is set in Berlin, and it's almost
Speaker:historical thriller element to it.
Speaker:So it follows this character through Berlin throughout the decades.
Speaker:I did a lot of research for that.
Speaker:Particularly like the East German stuff, the kind of the punk movement in Berlin.
Speaker:And I loved it.
Speaker:I mean, I really, it wasn't research, it was like, it was just enjoyment.
Speaker:I do wonder how the hell people did research before the internet.
Speaker:Because I can just like Google East German punks and you've got
Speaker:50 entries or like what kind of car they would drive in that time.
Speaker:In the olden days you had to actually earn it, you had to come and go
Speaker:and find a library and find out.
Speaker:Yeah, or speak to someone who was around at the time.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think I'm way too lazy to do that, so it's good that I'm in this era.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:With that experience with the third book, actually having to do
Speaker:so much research was that actually then quite an enjoyable experience?
Speaker:And are you looking to do maybe more historical stuff in the future or?
Speaker:Yeah, I did.
Speaker:That's another good question.
Speaker:I dunno.
Speaker:I did enjoy, I enjoy it if it's something I'm interested in.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And something I wanna learn about.
Speaker:And I, I read this specific book called Burning Down The Haus, which is H A U S.
Speaker:About Berlin and that kind of punk era thing and it, again,
Speaker:it didn't feel like school.
Speaker:It was just genuinely enjoyable.
Speaker:Yeah, and it was my real way into the story.
Speaker:In a way that I didn't really appreciate at the time.
Speaker:It depends if it's something I'm into, if it's something like pop culture, and
Speaker:music or sport, something like that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:If it's just historical for the sake of it.
Speaker:Yeah, probably not.
Speaker:So is there a personal interest that you would like to include in a future
Speaker:story, or that you're considering using in a story and use this knowledge or
Speaker:to deep dive and expand your knowledge?
Speaker:The, the first novel that I wrote that I thought this is like a genuine
Speaker:banger, that nothing happened with, was following this, it was about this kind
Speaker:of really degenerate tennis player.
Speaker:He'd wasted his potential.
Speaker:And it was following him around the challenger circuit in tennis.
Speaker:And that is something that really interests me.
Speaker:And it was set in the nineties?
Speaker:Yeah, I really like that.
Speaker:I like road trip books.
Speaker:My love and interest in that book was not shared by the publishing
Speaker:community, unfortunately.
Speaker:But yeah, I mean I, another one, actually.
Speaker:Another one was the third book I wrote, I'm a bit of a trainer
Speaker:head, a trainer collector.
Speaker:And it was about this kind, its like Indiana Jones, but if he was
Speaker:like a famous trainer collector.
Speaker:Cuz like these things go for hundreds of thousands pounds,
Speaker:like it's a huge industry.
Speaker:So it was like a pulp noiry adventure in that.
Speaker:Again, my love for this was not shared by the publishing community.
Speaker:You can detect a theme.
Speaker:It's it's really, it's the internal struggle between finding
Speaker:something that excites you and something that's gonna sell.
Speaker:Yeah, that bit is really important, unfortunately.
Speaker:Yeah, otherwise it don't matter how good it is.
Speaker:And talk a bit industry now, cuz obviously you're midway through
Speaker:your three book deal with Gollancz.
Speaker:How far along was the three books when you pitched it and when they got it?
Speaker:So I I went to see, like, I had this very specific agent in my mind that I wanted.
Speaker:So I went along and pitched him.
Speaker:It was a pitch night.
Speaker:And he, one of the things he said on it was that publishers like series.
Speaker:So if you're pitching something, say it's like the first in a series.
Speaker:And I hadn't thought of it particularly as a series at that point, but I did then.
Speaker:And so when I pitched it to him, I said I've written the first
Speaker:book and have plans for the second and third book, which is true.
Speaker:I had a vague idea what I do for the second book.
Speaker:I genuinely had no idea what I'd do for the third book.
Speaker:So when he said you know, Gollancz, can you send in your plans?
Speaker:Fuck.
Speaker:So the third one was a bit of a back of a fag packet idea, but
Speaker:it was, I think that's normal.
Speaker:Because you just, you haven't written a second where you don't
Speaker:know which way it's gonna go.
Speaker:It is, I think if you are writing a series like publishers do like them.
Speaker:Because they're could something they can potentially build up.
Speaker:They don't, doesn't always work like that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, so I didn't really know which, I knew how the last
Speaker:scene of the last book would be.
Speaker:I knew that, yeah.
Speaker:I didn't really know beyond that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And you've written another book since that's a standalone.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'm going out and submission with that.
Speaker:I was gonna say, what stage is that at?
Speaker:So it's done.
Speaker:I've done the kind of edit notes with my agent.
Speaker:My agent, sorry, my editor at Gollancz is actually leaving.
Speaker:So we are having to pitch it to someone's different in Orion.
Speaker:It'll be really interesting to see what happens with it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:People seem pretty excited by it.
Speaker:I, it's a really interesting time to be in because it still feels
Speaker:quite fragile, the whole thing.
Speaker:So you have this huge effort to get an agent and then you have
Speaker:this huge effort to sell a book and then try and build your career.
Speaker:And it's been like a wonderful experience, but still quite fragile.
Speaker:Like these three books will be over next year.
Speaker:Hopefully there'll be more.
Speaker:I'm not finished, I've got plenty more stories to tell, but it's still,
Speaker:unless you I think you're Stephen King or Ian Rankin or Aaronovitch
Speaker:like the rest of us are just kind of, it's a little bit, you're never
Speaker:quite sure which way it's gonna go, but that's exciting in a way as well.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So the standalone, is it in the same universe or is it a whole new thing?
Speaker:It's a different universe.
Speaker:Yeah, but it's paranormal and with a crime element.
Speaker:Again, it's sort of Stranger Things crossed with Gone Girl.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And it's based around the Rendlesham incident, which was in 1980.
Speaker:In Rendlesham Forest, aliens were purported to be spotted within the forest.
Speaker:And the thing that gave this a legit element was it was a US air
Speaker:force base that happened over.
Speaker:So they they did the reports.
Speaker:So the premise of the book is the main character's mother went missing
Speaker:on the night of the incident.
Speaker:And then 30 years later, they start to get transmissions from beyond.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:There's actually I'm gonna give a shout to my friends, Mike and Zoe, Stories of
Speaker:Strangeness podcast cause they've actually done an episode on the whole incident.
Speaker:Excellent.
Speaker:So I will put in the show notes of this.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'll have to give that listen.
Speaker:Yeah, more context to that, cuz yeah it was um, the UK Roswell,
Speaker:isn't it like pitched a s?
Speaker:That's exactly what it is.
Speaker:That's also in the pitch, yeah.
Speaker:So, um, I actually understand what you were referring to, so that's
Speaker:yeah, that's a really exciting thing.
Speaker:And yeah, I guess you've got the eighties setting with that.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:So it yeah, it starts in the eighties and it pings forward 30 years.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Yeah, it was one from the start that kind of, when I gave it to
Speaker:beta readers, everyone was like, everyone was quite excited by it.
Speaker:My wife was like actively asking me for the next bit, rather than just oh, Christ.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:He's giving me 30 more pages.
Speaker:Which is always a pretty good sign.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And that's a really nice thing, I think.
Speaker:Linking it to not an urban legend, but you know, actual like factual
Speaker:historical, with a bit of mystery.
Speaker:Is that something that's you are attempted to do again in the future?
Speaker:Sort of looking at sort of real world mysteries and setting stories around it?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Potentially.
Speaker:And I guess I did it a bit with which will be the third Dying
Speaker:Squad book, The Ungrateful Dead.
Speaker:It's it's again, it's using that real life thing as my way in.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And then that, that lets you kind of burrow in and build the world from that.
Speaker:I always find I do much better if I have that little in.
Speaker:It also legitimizes it a bit.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:If it's a real life thing.
Speaker:It just, it, especially if you're dealing with the paranormal or the
Speaker:extraordinary, it just gives you a bit more grit and credence, I think.
Speaker:Yeah, no.
Speaker:And it's like something to anchor the events around.
Speaker:A hundred percent.
Speaker:And I think also like they can save your ass a little bit in a writing stage.
Speaker:If you're struggling, you've always got this kind of real thing to go back to.
Speaker:Yeah, and it does ideas germinate from it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:No, that's really cool.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I can see why there's a lot of excitement around that and
Speaker:I'm excited for that as well.
Speaker:Thanks man.
Speaker:Cheers.
Speaker:Is it just cuz yeah, as a a filmmaker for like most of your career, was there
Speaker:a strong desire to go back to scripts as just because the length of time that
Speaker:books take and they're very solitary.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:What was the draw back for screenplays for you?
Speaker:I think I, I would feel I've failed on some level if I don't
Speaker:get something made as a script.
Speaker:I would feel like that's how I got into the creativity, writing scripts and making
Speaker:films, I would feel like I'd failed.
Speaker:Whether that's right or not, that's just the way I'm built
Speaker:and the way I would feel.
Speaker:So yeah is it unfinished business?
Speaker:And also screenplay far more collaborative as a process.
Speaker:Is the collaboration uh, something that you really enjoy or do you
Speaker:prefer to be like a writer director?
Speaker:Do you want the control over the story?
Speaker:I've got better at ceding control as I've got older.
Speaker:I think the control thing is there's a little bit of
Speaker:insecurity when you're younger.
Speaker:Because you don't, you're not quite confident enough to delegate stuff
Speaker:to people and you hide behind it.
Speaker:My vision is absolute, this is the way it must be.
Speaker:I think as you get a bit older and a bit more relaxed about
Speaker:it, you can cede control.
Speaker:And if you feel like in the writer's room doing something for Netflix, like
Speaker:you, you are with the best of the best.
Speaker:Like that's not something to be afraid of.
Speaker:That's something you should embrace, I think.
Speaker:In terms of novels, it's a little bit different.
Speaker:But in general, I like the editing process.
Speaker:I know a lot of writers just hate it, but I really like it.
Speaker:If you've got a good editor, like they're gonna make that book better, they are.
Speaker:They're gonna call you out on your bullshit.
Speaker:Where your bits where you've just tried to write extra confidently
Speaker:to cover this is just rubbish.
Speaker:And they're gonna make the book better.
Speaker:So I've loved working with my editor at Gollancz.
Speaker:Rachel Winterbottom, she's a gem, like she's really good.
Speaker:And then they shouldn't tell you what to do.
Speaker:Like they should say this doesn't work, how can you make it better?
Speaker:And then that will make you make it better.
Speaker:You might not know straight away, but I think that's the art of a good editor.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And would you ever, either with scripts or with novels, collaborate
Speaker:and like co-write a story.
Speaker:Yeah, I dunno.
Speaker:I'm up for it in principle.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'm up for it in principle.
Speaker:Probably not Kirsty, my wife.
Speaker:For the sake of our marriage, but she's too good anyway.
Speaker:She show me up.
Speaker:I yeah, in theory.
Speaker:Obviously, yeah, with, with a script, it can be passed through so many hands.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:Either until it gets to you or you give it to someone else.
Speaker:So yeah, the collaboration thing, I think once you get over working with someone
Speaker:again, after working so long with novels, I'd be quite excited by it, I think.
Speaker:Yeah, cool.
Speaker:And I'm going to wrap up with the final two questions I always ask.
Speaker:So it's my belief that writers learn and grow with every story that they write.
Speaker:With the last thing that you wrote, which sounds like it was this standalone.
Speaker:Was there anything in writing that you felt, oh, that's gonna make my
Speaker:writing better or was there a specific thing that you will now apply you
Speaker:think to the next thing you write?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think in terms of last novel.
Speaker:The last novel was actually the third Dying Squad book.
Speaker:And I only bring that up because that has got some of the
Speaker:best stuff I've ever written.
Speaker:And there's not, I'd love to say, oh, I changed my process to do that.
Speaker:I just something sometimes you get a bit inspired.
Speaker:And it's magic, it's auto witchcraft, and you just go with it.
Speaker:And it's not even you writing, you're transcribing for something.
Speaker:Like, it's you almost can't take credit for it.
Speaker:It's not all like that they're days as well you think, God, this is
Speaker:shit, this is just my careers over.
Speaker:This is finished.
Speaker:But that has got some of the stuff I'm proudest of.
Speaker:Yeah, and I wish I knew how to do it.
Speaker:I wish I could bottle it and say, just do that all the time.
Speaker:It doesn't work like that.
Speaker:Unfortunately.
Speaker:Do you think it's the confidence of finishing projects that you're not getting
Speaker:in the way of your creative muscles?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think with the third one as well, like you see so many like trilogies
Speaker:and the third one is just rubbish.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Whether that's books or films.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's like they've run out of ideas and stretch the one idea over three books.
Speaker:I felt like pressure on myself that this needs to be the
Speaker:best book, this third book.
Speaker:And it was also like with that, cause I didn't have a plan,
Speaker:it's is this gonna work out?
Speaker:Am I gonna be able to end this in a decent way?
Speaker:And I felt like pride that it does.
Speaker:I think it is the best book and it does end it strongly.
Speaker:But again, I think you just do it enough times and you think it's gonna be alright.
Speaker:You learn that despite when you're having a bad day, that doesn't cripple you.
Speaker:You know you will have a good one tomorrow or the good one
Speaker:is not far around the corner.
Speaker:Yeah, I think that's really important.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And is there one piece of advice you've ever been given or something that you've
Speaker:read that really resonated with you?
Speaker:I think the best bit of a writing advice I've ever been
Speaker:given was write how you talk.
Speaker:Only you sound like you.
Speaker:Only you have your voice.
Speaker:If you're gonna try and create a bit of a voice, which is really important.
Speaker:Um, and people say, how do you do that?
Speaker:I think you just write how you talk.
Speaker:Write how you talk to your friends.
Speaker:Write in that same sort of style, no matter what.
Speaker:You don't need, you shouldn't really need to change your style.
Speaker:If you are write historical fiction or something about a guy trying to be a rock
Speaker:star, you still doing it in your voice.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And it's easier said than done, but if you can do that, yeah.
Speaker:You've got a good chance, I think.
Speaker:Do you ever read your stuff aloud?
Speaker:I've done a couple of readings.
Speaker:I hate readings.
Speaker:I hate attending them and I hate giving them.
Speaker:I just think, why would anyone want this?
Speaker:Yeah, I do do it aloud, sometimes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It is a good way.
Speaker:I don't, I know some people will just sit down and read the whole thing aloud.
Speaker:And that helps.
Speaker:I can't think of anything worse.
Speaker:But yeah, I do.
Speaker:And it's a good way of yeah, finding the flow.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's just yeah.
Speaker:Cuz some people have a strong internal voice and just read it through, but
Speaker:some people just need to externalize it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And it is, it's like when you're editing film.
Speaker:It's incredible the difference between taking it from one
Speaker:screen to another makes.
Speaker:You see it almost in a different way.
Speaker:Bits that you didn't see before that don't work.
Speaker:And the same is true of writing, I guess.
Speaker:If you read it aloud, you just hear things when it clunks that you don't
Speaker:hear from when it's in your head.
Speaker:That's cool.
Speaker:Adam Simcox, thank you very much.
Speaker:Thank you mate.
Speaker:It's a genuine pleasure.
Speaker:Cheers.
Speaker:And cheers to you.
Speaker:And that was the real writing process of Adam Simcox.
Speaker:Now he said it in passing, but I'm pretty sure I got an exclusive on his third
Speaker:book being called, The Ungrateful Dead.
Speaker:There's no publishing information about that out there, at the moment.
Speaker:And even Adam doesn't know the exact release date, just summer 2023.
Speaker:So if any of you are journalists and want to cite this podcast as a source
Speaker:and announce that title, that's fine.
Speaker:But if anyone tries to claim an exclusive title announcement, at some point
Speaker:in the future, I will retweet them.
Speaker:And I want you all to know I'm doing it sarcastically.
Speaker:I also want to take a moment to shout out to my friends at the
Speaker:Stories of Strangeness podcast.
Speaker:It's run by Mike and Zoe.
Speaker:They're wonderful people and they've been doing it for years.
Speaker:And episode 15 is their breakdown of the Rendlesham forest incident.
Speaker:So if you want to have a bit of background to Adam's next big
Speaker:thing then do give it a listen.
Speaker:You should also give it a listen anyway, because it's a great show.
Speaker:But for Adam and fans of Adam, episode 15 is the one to listen to.
Speaker:Uh, so yes, buy Adam's books, they're good.
Speaker:His wife, Kirsty Eyre, is also good.
Speaker:Buy her books too.
Speaker:Uh, she's written two books, uh, but one is under the name Ginger Jones.
Speaker:And I don't know if it's a loophole to try and win a debut novel award.
Speaker:Um, I'm not sure not going to pick at that thread.
Speaker:I'm not judging book competitions.
Speaker:So just read the books.
Speaker:That's it for me.
Speaker:Would it be another four months until the next episode?
Speaker:Maybe.
Speaker:Uh, in the meantime though, outro music.
Speaker:Look after yourselves and keep Until the world ends.
