Episode 108

full
Published on:

12th Dec 2021

The Real Writing Process of Harriet Kline

Tom Pepperdine interviews Harriet Kline about her day to day writing process. Harriet discusses the challenges of writing about grief, how she writes around her part-time job, and the unusual way she makes her hot chocolate.

You can find all of Harriet's information on her website here: www.harrietkline.com

And you can follow her on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/HareandHarriet

And you can find more information on our upcoming guests on the following links:

https://twitter.com/Therealwriting1

https://www.instagram.com/realwritingpro

https://www.facebook.com/therealwritingprocesspodcast

Transcript
Tom:

Hello and welcome to The Real Writing Process.

Tom:

I'm your host, Tom Pepperdine, and this episode, my guest is Harriet Klein.

Tom:

Harriet is a multi award-winning short story writer, who released

Tom:

her debut novel, This Shining Life, in the summer of 2021.

Tom:

This interview was recorded in mid August, 2021, a few weeks after Harriet's

Tom:

novel had been published in the UK.

Tom:

So I'm here with Harriet Kline.

Tom:

Good evening, Harriet.

Tom:

How are you?

Harriet:

I'm well, thanks.

Harriet:

Hi.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

Hello.

Tom:

And um, first question as always, what are we drinking?

Harriet:

Well, what we have here is hot chocolate.

Harriet:

Only, it's not actually really hot chocolate.

Harriet:

I just make it with cocoa and hot water and a dash of milk, like

Harriet:

you would in a cup of tea, with no sugar and there's no heated milk.

Tom:

So yeah, I'm going to have my first taste of this.

Harriet:

It might be a bit of a niche taste, but I know it's nice.

Tom:

It's actually more thirst quenching because when you have it with full milk

Tom:

it's quite creamy, it's quite rich.

Tom:

But no, that's very nice and I don't think it needs extra sugar.

Tom:

So how did you come across this is a drink?

Tom:

Making hot chocolate, like tea.

Tom:

Is this something you've had from childhood?

Tom:

Is this something that developed recently?

Harriet:

It's probably about 10 years.

Harriet:

It's because I try to have as little sugar as I can and I am very

Harriet:

fond of chocolate, and I just want that chocolate taste sometimes.

Harriet:

And this for me hits the spot.

Harriet:

I'm not saying I don't eat chocolate because,

Tom:

So how often do you drink this hot chocolate?

Harriet:

Um, every night.

Tom:

So this is your day-to-day drink?

Tom:

Excellent.

Tom:

And is it something that you you write with?

Tom:

So is it something after your writing day or is it something whilst you're

Tom:

writing or just before you start?

Harriet:

Sometimes it's a reward if I had a good day.

Harriet:

But actually sometimes, if I'm just, I need a hot drink and I've done tea

Harriet:

for the day, that's the next step.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

Something without caffeine, something nice and relaxing for the evening.

Tom:

Oh, that's lovely.

Tom:

And where am I speaking to you right now?

Tom:

I see a lot of books in the background.

Tom:

Is this an office?

Tom:

Is this a corner of a room?

Tom:

Where are you at the moment?

Harriet:

Well, It is my writing space.

Harriet:

It's quite artfully arranged for Zoom calls, so that all the

Harriet:

books show in the background.

Harriet:

Where it actually is, is at the bottom of the stairs to our attic.

Harriet:

The other side of the camera, there are a huge amount of instruments.

Harriet:

So my partner is a music therapist and so all his instruments are

Harriet:

stacked up right up to the ceiling.

Harriet:

And there is also a monster, sort of stuffed creature that

Harriet:

is also behind the camera.

Harriet:

And that does overlook my writing wherever I go.

Harriet:

It was a creature that I actually dreamt about once.

Harriet:

And I drew a picture that showed it to my sister.

Harriet:

And then the next time I saw her, she'd made it out of a kind of, she'd cut up

Harriet:

an old car wash sponge and with leather jacket and she's made this creature.

Tom:

So I need to find out whether this is a good or bad thing.

Tom:

So was this a nightmare or was this a pleasant dream?

Tom:

Was this a fun dream or was this something from your nightmares that

Tom:

your sister was like, I'm going to manifest this into reality.

Harriet:

Luckily more quite a nightmare.

Harriet:

I think I told her that I'd had lots of dreams about creatures in ponds.

Harriet:

And we talked about the pond being your unconscious, and what might

Harriet:

come out of your unconscious.

Harriet:

So, you know, I was trying to welcome it.

Harriet:

And when I welcomed this creature and when I showed her that picture,.

Harriet:

I said, look, it's sad but it's frightening.

Harriet:

And so that's exactly what she's done.

Harriet:

She's given it teeth, but this kind of very sad face and sad eyes.

Tom:

So it's not a form of inspiration.

Tom:

Is it your writing goblin to make sure you're working.

Tom:

Make sure you don't procrastinate.

Harriet:

That's exactly what it is.

Harriet:

But it also, it just reminds me.

Harriet:

I just have to glance at it and I think, yep your unconscious is in charge.

Harriet:

You allow your unconscious to do the work and then the right things will come up.

Harriet:

So it is quite meaningful for me.

Tom:

Oh, that's nice.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

That's really interesting.

Tom:

We'll come onto your planning in a minute, but it's interesting how you allow your

Tom:

unconscious mind to inform your writing.

Tom:

And so is this a shared workspace?

Tom:

By the attic stairs, is there a lot, is it quite isolated or is there a family noise?

Harriet:

In lockdown, there's been a lot more family noise, but generally

Harriet:

it is my kind of private space.

Harriet:

So I can shut the door.

Harriet:

I do work.

Harriet:

When the house is empty I'll work anywhere in the house, but this is my hideaway.

Tom:

Okay.

Tom:

Now you've had your first novel published this summer.

Tom:

So congratulations first of all, that's a great feat.

Tom:

But how long have you actually been writing creatively for?

Harriet:

Probably all my life.

Harriet:

I think I knew that I wanted to be a writer from when I was really young.

Harriet:

And then after I'd been to university, I, I was a writer-in-residence

Harriet:

actually, at the Isle of Wight hospital.

Harriet:

And there I did quite a lot of my own writing as well as encouraging other

Harriet:

people, patients with things to write.

Harriet:

So I did quite a lot then, but I never really quite got as far as I wanted.

Harriet:

I'd written a novel, I'd written a few short stories, but I wasn't

Harriet:

really very happy with them.

Harriet:

And then I had children and I gave up a bit.

Harriet:

And then after I'd had children, I just thought, well I really want to do this.

Harriet:

I really feel like the time is it.

Harriet:

And so then probably, I've been working seriously on

Harriet:

writing for about 10 years now.

Tom:

That's excellent.

Tom:

I definitely think writing is in the bones.

Tom:

I think a lot of writers like you, they're natural born storytellers.

Tom:

It's the evolution of humanity, you know, sort of round the

Tom:

campfire in the early tribes.

Tom:

Having those storytellers.

Tom:

It's definitely a vocation that, that comes out.

Tom:

So it's good to see that's definitely manifested in you.

Tom:

Now you said that you had written a novel before, but hadn't been

Tom:

particularly happy with it.

Tom:

As well as also writing short stories.

Tom:

When writing this story that eventually got published, did it feel at the

Tom:

time there's something special about this concept or was it just

Tom:

your state of mind that you really wanted to complete this as a project?

Tom:

Or was it more that once it was finished, it was just people's

Tom:

reactions to it was far greater than anything that had happened before?

Harriet:

I think I knew when I got the idea that I needed to write it.

Harriet:

So I had no doubt in my mind that I was going to finish.

Harriet:

But I also knew as I, as it emerged and with my process of the writing, I

Harriet:

think I thought, this is going to work.

Harriet:

I just knew it was gonna work.

Harriet:

But also I had this mission, that I was going to tell my truth.

Harriet:

Before I think I'd been thinking, oh, I want to write a story about this,

Harriet:

I want to that story about that.

Harriet:

And this really felt like it came from the heart, that this is my truth

Harriet:

and I have something to say here.

Harriet:

And I think that was when I realized I've actually got something to say was

Harriet:

when I felt, yes, this is going to work.

Tom:

So it's a very personal story and certainly there's a

Tom:

lot of high emotion in the story.

Tom:

Um, so is that, so that was from direct experience?

Tom:

That was through events in your life that directly tied to the book?

Harriet:

Yes.

Harriet:

I mean nothing in the book that happened, uh, that happens in the

Harriet:

book actually happened in real life.

Harriet:

Apart from the only thing that did happen is that a friend of

Harriet:

mine, very dear friend, did die.

Harriet:

And I was present at the death and it was that experience of being present at

Harriet:

the death that inspired the whole book.

Harriet:

So I was observing all the other people around the deathbed and

Harriet:

thinking about their reactions and how they were grieving.

Harriet:

And that was what made me want to write a book about grief.

Harriet:

But certainly it's still fictional.

Tom:

Yes, absolutely.

Tom:

I think when dealing with such raw emotions, it needs to be fictional

Tom:

to be true, if that makes sense?

Tom:

Cause when you're writing characters, you have that creative

Tom:

license and to allow things to evolve at a natural pace for you.

Tom:

Where if you're dealing with real people and real individuals,

Tom:

there may be true events that they don't want to be represented in.

Tom:

And you can amalgamate uh real people's personalities into one

Tom:

character for convenience, and also blur the lines of reality in fiction.

Tom:

So,

Harriet:

And I think fiction allows you to actually tell the truth by putting

Harriet:

a kind of level of metaphor in there.

Harriet:

Instead of just blatantly saying, if you're feeling very buttoned

Harriet:

up, you'll find it hard to grieve.

Harriet:

You can actually show that through incidents that demonstrate that these

Harriet:

people are buttoned up, if that's what you want to show so I think fiction definitely

Harriet:

felt more true than just what happened, which was just people crying really.

Tom:

I'm really interested in the fact that there's a

Tom:

neurodiverse child in the story.

Tom:

Was that again, based on people that you knew or what was the decision to.

Harriet:

Well, I mean, I am close to a number um, of neurodiverse people.

Harriet:

Um, So it's something I'm kind of aware of and, you know, I love a

Harriet:

lot of people who are neurodiverse.

Harriet:

So it's, it's always there on my mind.

Harriet:

So he, the character Ollie is not really like anyone I know, actually.

Harriet:

He very quickly became himself.

Harriet:

But I wanted to show, I was thinking about how grief is one of the things

Harriet:

that happens to all of us when you, when somebody dies is that

Harriet:

you simply can't understand it.

Harriet:

And you're trying to figure it out.

Harriet:

Everybody who's grieving goes through their own journey.

Harriet:

And I really wanted to show that's one journey that somebody may

Harriet:

be on, in the process of grief.

Tom:

Yeah, no, absolutely.

Tom:

And so having a lot of friends who are neuro diverse or surrounded by

Tom:

neurodiverse people, were they able to help make that authentic and

Tom:

did you have them as kind of beta readers as you're developing the book?

Harriet:

I really wanted to keep it based on how I felt the character should be.

Harriet:

And I did it very instinctively really through knowing people.

Harriet:

And I did sometimes ask some of the people that I know, just to say, am I right here?

Harriet:

Um, And I was told quite clearly when I wasn't.

Harriet:

But I still, I don't know, still really whether it's right because I think

Harriet:

people experience it differently.

Harriet:

So whatever Ollie's like, he's not going to be like, particularly

Harriet:

like anyone else who's autistic.

Harriet:

So...

Tom:

No, that, that, that's absolutely fine.

Tom:

Did you take a long time to flesh out the characters before

Tom:

you started writing the story?

Tom:

Or did they evolve naturally through the writing process?

Harriet:

I think they evolved naturally.

Harriet:

I think I became aware of where they were going quite quickly.

Harriet:

The thing that I really did have to research a bit more

Harriet:

was dementia, actually.

Harriet:

Because I don't have so much experience of that, so I really did have to think

Harriet:

well, what's that like in its very early stages and how do people experience it?

Harriet:

And it would've been very nice actually, if I known someone

Harriet:

to talk about that with.

Harriet:

I wasn't able to find anyone.

Tom:

Okay.

Tom:

When it comes to research, you've said how a lot of it comes from the people

Tom:

you've known and interacted with.

Tom:

But as you said with dementia, an area that you didn't know, is

Tom:

that a lot of online research?

Tom:

Did you find any sort of particular websites or books for reference that

Tom:

really helped you through the development?

Harriet:

I tend to use online resources because thay'll just

Harriet:

take you in so many directions.

Harriet:

And I, I actually often use fiction actually, because I just think for getting

Harriet:

the feel of how things come across.

Harriet:

So I've looked at a lot of, I think it's a Jane Gardam story where it had some

Harriet:

one had to care for someone's mother who's just at very early stages in the

Harriet:

same way that Gerald in the book is.

Harriet:

So I, I looked at how she portrayed that and then looked up online, what

Harriet:

elements might be happening there.

Tom:

Was there any other challenges that you found writing this type of book?

Tom:

Cause it's quite an emotional book.

Tom:

Were you prepped for that going in or was there quite an

Tom:

emotional toll as you wrote it?

Tom:

Yeah, there was an emotional toll.

Tom:

But it was also, I was still in the grieving process myself

Tom:

when I started writing it.

Tom:

And it actually was almost like a luxury that it kept me in that process.

Tom:

It kept me in touch with the person who's died, actually.

Tom:

Because I was still thinking about the effect it had on me and not just thinking,

Tom:

right time to get on with my life.

Tom:

So in some ways it was like a gift to be able to keep that alive for myself.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

Certainly writing can be a form of therapy and that's good that it helped you.

Tom:

So when you're starting from such an emotional point, you said

Tom:

at the beginning, you knew you were going to finish this book.

Tom:

How long did it actually take from you starting writing to finishing?

Tom:

And how was your emotional journey as a person?

Tom:

From that, how much closure was there on the death of a

Tom:

friend when finishing this book?

Tom:

Had you come to terms with that through the book or did it meet

Tom:

at the same endpoint as the book?

Harriet:

Yeah, I knew I was going to finish it.

Harriet:

And I think for me, that kind of felt like there was a process to go

Harriet:

through and I felt like, you know, yes, I'm always going to have that

Harriet:

sadness in my heart, but somehow when I get to the end of the book I'll have

Harriet:

got to a milestone somehow with it.

Harriet:

But also, what I don't think I'd realized quite how uplifting the book was going to

Harriet:

be and quite how much the character of the man who died was going to be so lovable.

Harriet:

And for me, that became like a sort of testament to the person who died.

Harriet:

I mean, not that he is exactly like that person died, but somehow it was almost

Harriet:

like this is where I've placed him.

Harriet:

And he's now got somewhere for me to visit.

Harriet:

So it really felt very precious.

Tom:

What was that like when the book finished?

Harriet:

It was good.

Harriet:

It was good.

Harriet:

It wasn't, I didn't feel a kind of grief about that.

Harriet:

I think I felt I've now got something to believe in.

Harriet:

And to love.

Harriet:

It was, you know, I suppose in a way it's a bit like when you plant a tree or or a

Harriet:

gravestone or when you scatter some ashes.

Harriet:

This is my thing for this person.

Tom:

And you've mentioned on your website that you're a keen journaler

Tom:

and you write a lot of journals.

Tom:

How useful was it to maintain a journal through this journey, and how much of

Tom:

the book was reliant on journal entries that you had made through that process?

Harriet:

Yes, it was pretty reliant.

Harriet:

Quite a lot of my journaling.

Harriet:

I can't actually read once I read it because I just

Harriet:

write it down extremely fast.

Harriet:

But that's the pleasure of it, is that it allows me to get everything out.

Harriet:

So I took all my notebooks and I looked through them and it gave me

Harriet:

the right feeling to get into, but what's more important for me actually

Harriet:

is journaling during the process.

Harriet:

So I do find, I have to, before I can do any useful writing, I do have to

Harriet:

write basically a load of rubbish.

Harriet:

So I have to start by just writing, oh, I'm really tired.

Harriet:

It's horrible, it's raining.

Harriet:

I had a dream about blah, blah, blah.

Harriet:

And I just write complete random stuff and somehow that brings me completely present

Harriet:

and I've become very aware of where I am.

Harriet:

Where my emotions are, what's going on in my body.

Harriet:

And somehow that allows me to write better because I'm fully present.

Tom:

It sounds like stretching with exercise.

Tom:

It's that early stretch of just stretching the writing muscle.

Tom:

Uh, that is a fascinating way of doing it.

Tom:

I'm sure there are others, but that's the first time I've heard of doing that.

Tom:

And it sounds like you do that regularly.

Tom:

So do you go through that process every time you sit down for a writing session?

Harriet:

Yeah.

Harriet:

Not every time, but actually if I, as soon as I've realized that

Harriet:

I'm struggling, I just think, oh yeah, it's cause you didn't do it.

Harriet:

So I will do that.

Harriet:

And if I'm really struggling, I will even go a little bit wild and

Harriet:

draw pictures and I'll write with my left hand, I'm right handed.

Harriet:

So I'll write with my left hand, or write with my eyes shut

Harriet:

or turn the book to one side.

Harriet:

So that anything just to make it feel a bit more strange to me

Harriet:

really, to get my brain going.

Harriet:

And I think that analogy of stretching is absolutely brilliant.

Harriet:

It is like that.

Harriet:

And it's a bit like, actors are going to be like that as well.

Tom:

I think it's because there's a lot of talk about alpha waves

Tom:

in the creative brain and it's triggering it through a process

Tom:

where you're doing something physical that you don't have to think about.

Tom:

So that's why walking the dog or having a shower or just doing the dishes

Tom:

are all things that there's so much muscle memory involved, that it just

Tom:

allows the creative mind to wander.

Tom:

But to write differently, to write in an almost like a conscious nonsense

Tom:

way, it's writing left-handed and writing just what's on the forefront

Tom:

of the consciousness to loosen up the subconscious is fascinating.

Tom:

I hope that there's members of the audience listening to this who have

Tom:

found all these other ways not working.

Tom:

And then they go, I need to stretch.

Tom:

I need to do this.

Tom:

I need to do the Harriet Kline stretch and start writing gibberish.

Harriet:

I'll tell you there's another thing that happens to me when I'm doing

Harriet:

that, which I also find really useful.

Harriet:

Sometimes I'll start writing and I will make, I suppose what

Harriet:

they are is Freudian slips.

Harriet:

One of them that happened a lot for me was I would be trying to like,

Harriet:

oh, there's something in my heart or, and I would write the word heard,

Harriet:

or sometimes I'll write, I'll just write the wrong word basically.

Harriet:

And I thought the word, you know, having this heart and heard thing was really

Harriet:

interesting and it's like, I need to open my heart or I need to be heard.

Harriet:

So I will look at a mistake I've written.

Harriet:

I'll write so fast that the wrong word will come up.

Harriet:

And then that makes me think, oh, I think I know exactly what is

Harriet:

really wanting to be written now.

Tom:

Wow.

Harriet:

Because it's accidentally on purpose written.

Tom:

It's tapping into, yeah, that's fascinating.

Tom:

It's such a stream of consciousness way of writing.

Tom:

You now, you think of Virginia Woolf, you think of To The Lighthouse,

Tom:

you think there are people who've had great success writing this.

Tom:

It's just so far removed from what a writing manual or a

Tom:

masterclass on writing may teach.

Tom:

So when you're writing, obviously you had the concept after this tragic event,

Tom:

that you wanted to write this book.

Tom:

But the I'm guessing the plot and the actual outline and structure of

Tom:

the book hadn't manifested itself.

Tom:

Is there any form of plan of how the events will unfold or is it very much, I

Tom:

sit down, I write, I see how it connects to what I wrote yesterday and how it

Tom:

might lead into what I wrote tomorrow?

Harriet:

I'm definitely more of I wrote in order to generate the characters

Harriet:

and to feel that there was something that I needed to say, but I would say

Harriet:

once I'd got those characters there, I did think there has to be a story and

Harriet:

it has to be more than this man died and some people were upset about it.

Harriet:

So I then had to create the story.

Harriet:

And I, once the idea was there, I still hadn't really got a structure.

Harriet:

And one of the things about this book is it has got quite an unusual structure.

Harriet:

Some of the things, the events are revisited, um, so you hear them from

Harriet:

one point of view, and then you hear them from someone else's point of view.

Harriet:

And I didn't know that was going to happen really until really late on, but once I

Harriet:

knew it just completely fell into place.

Harriet:

It was like a piece of magic actually.

Harriet:

And what happened was that I was really putting off writing

Harriet:

the actual scene of death.

Harriet:

I'd written everybody's reaction to it.

Harriet:

I'd written the the lead up to it.

Harriet:

And then I thought, no, I have to write the moment.

Harriet:

And this person dies.

Harriet:

And I wrote it and it was really difficult and painful.

Harriet:

And then I wrote it and then as soon as it was done, I thought,

Harriet:

that is the end of part one.

Harriet:

And I absolutely knew that was the end.

Harriet:

And then from that point on the structure fell into place.

Harriet:

It was going to be how many parts and it just worked.

Harriet:

And I think it must have been there all along, but because I was putting

Harriet:

off writing this painful scene, it couldn't show itself to me.

Tom:

Oh, that's fascinating.

Tom:

So on a day-to-day writing basis, how do you limit yourself?

Tom:

How do you know when you've done for the day?

Tom:

Is it that you only worked for a certain length of time or is there a certain

Tom:

word count or is it just emotive?

Tom:

It's just, you have a feeling of that's all I've got today.

Harriet:

I think it's probably that.

Harriet:

What I do is I tend to start and I write quite a lot and then I'll

Harriet:

have a break and then a little bit less and then have another break and

Harriet:

then I'll write a little bit less.

Harriet:

And those sort of second, third, fourth amounts, they get the more, the more

Harriet:

small they are then I know I'm finished.

Harriet:

I never get a second wind.

Harriet:

I think I know I'm done when the front of my head just feels like it's turned

Harriet:

soggy and I can't think anymore.

Tom:

Do you start at the same time each day, when you're having your writing day?

Harriet:

I try to.

Harriet:

It does really help me to have a routine.

Harriet:

So I try to be at the desk by half past seven in the morning.

Tom:

And so how long is a typical writing day for you?

Tom:

After all the breaks, what time is it kind of no more breaks today?

Harriet:

I will probably finish about three to four.

Harriet:

The breaks get longer and longer as well.

Tom:

And you mentioned the soggy forehead description.

Tom:

Is that the time to get a break or is it just more physical?

Tom:

I'm hungry.

Tom:

I'm thirsty.

Tom:

I need the toilet.

Tom:

What triggers a break for you?

Harriet:

Hunger is a really big one.

Harriet:

But also I think, the best, my ideal writing day would be I write something

Harriet:

amazing and I have a break because I know that bit's done and it's really good.

Harriet:

That probably happens about every two months.

Harriet:

It's mostly hunger or it's mostly, I just need a break.

Harriet:

I cannot think anymore.

Harriet:

When I come back to this, I need to come back to it and hopefully

Harriet:

I'll be able to gather myself.

Tom:

And when you step away from your desk, because again, you see a lot of

Tom:

different conflicting advice around this.

Tom:

Do you prefer to leave at mid sentence or is it like, no, I've need to finish

Tom:

a paragraph or I'm just going to finish this scene or this chapter,

Tom:

do you like to leave it finished or do you like to have it, partial way?

Harriet:

I think I will stop when I can't stand it any longer.

Harriet:

So it will probably be mid sentence normally.

Harriet:

Cause I do quite a lot of writing by hand.

Harriet:

When I know I need a break, it normally goes, "and then he walked across

Harriet:

the remote- Oh this is rubbish!"

Harriet:

In capitals and then I'd walk away.

Harriet:

And actually I do that on the computer as well.

Harriet:

I put big notes on it, which say, "oh, shut up."

Harriet:

And then I walk away.

Tom:

Having it mid like dynamic flow of the scene.

Tom:

Do you find that enormously helpful for when you return?

Tom:

Because i, I that's what I hear is if you leave it mid sentence or you, if

Tom:

you leave it mid-something, you can pick up exactly where you left off.

Harriet:

No, I don't think that really works for me.

Harriet:

I liked that idea, but I think it's usually left in such a grump.

Harriet:

And probably because it's deteriorating at that point anyway, I'll normally read what

Harriet:

I've written so far, and then probably start from a little bit further back.

Tom:

Is there a notable part where you can say, "Oh, this is where

Tom:

it started running away from me"?

Harriet:

Yeah.

Harriet:

Yeah, it definitely can.

Harriet:

I can sense the tiredness and the irritation.

Tom:

So you don't have daily targets?

Harriet:

No, I tried that and it was, I was just writing dross in order to

Harriet:

get the, I think it's better for me if I just like what needs to be written.

Tom:

And when you walk away and go, "Oh that is rubbish or whatever," you

Tom:

have these little breaks, is there any point in a project where you completely

Tom:

lose confidence in yourself and you just think you're a terrible writer?

Tom:

Why did I even start this and get some imposter syndrome?

Tom:

And is that something that happens regularly to you?

Tom:

Or is this something that happened in one or two instances

Tom:

that really sticks in the mind?

Harriet:

I would say it's absolutely happening to me now with book number two.

Harriet:

What was really magical about writing This Shining Life is I didn't have that.

Harriet:

And I think that was something to do with my emotional connection to it as well.

Harriet:

And then this time round, and I think it's also the pressure of

Harriet:

having to write the second book.

Harriet:

And I found myself trying to second guess what people have liked about

Harriet:

this book and I've got to do something like it, but still different.

Harriet:

And I think because of that, I've actually found it really difficult

Harriet:

to believe in the book that is the second book in that project.

Harriet:

So that is a struggle.

Harriet:

I look at my sentences and I think, no, that's a good sentence.

Harriet:

But is the whole project good enough?

Harriet:

And I definitely I'm in a place of doubt with that.

Harriet:

Having said that, I think that a little bit of doubt is a really good thing.

Harriet:

I think it can keep things very open and can test you.

Harriet:

So I'm trying quite hard not to worry about that too much.

Harriet:

But imposter syndrome is really difficult because I think it

Harriet:

undermines your sense of purpose.

Tom:

Yeah, it's definitely from all the writers I've spoken to, it

Tom:

almost seems like a rite of passage.

Tom:

And the amount of writers that I talked to that go, yes, I

Tom:

completely second guess myself.

Tom:

I feel like I'm going to get found out.

Tom:

I feel that this is a complete waste of time only to be told by the nearest

Tom:

and dearest, you do this on every book.

Tom:

And the writers would be like, I don't remember feeling this

Tom:

bad or this insecure ever.

Tom:

And everyone around them is like, we're not gaslighting you, it's literally

Tom:

about the same amount of word count, whether it's a third of the way through

Tom:

or two thirds of the way through, or, a certain number of words you get this.

Tom:

And I think it may just be that experience.

Harriet:

I think that's absolutely right.

Harriet:

And I think for me, the point I get to it is when I haven't got the

Harriet:

structure completely ready and it's not clear how what I'm going to

Harriet:

say is going to fit into a story.

Harriet:

And I think I'm at that point now.

Harriet:

So I'm thinking I'll never make it into a book.

Harriet:

I've just got a whole lot of writing.

Harriet:

And I just, I think the way to deal with it as trust and that is such a hard thing.

Harriet:

And it also means that you have to keep alive that possibility

Harriet:

that maybe it won't work.

Harriet:

Otherwise you don't have it.

Tom:

It's coming back to, it's a vocation, writing.

Tom:

And it's something that you have to do.

Tom:

And the best writers it's, it's in their bones, you know, that

Tom:

I have to get the story out.

Harriet:

And then, and so it's horrible when you question that,

Harriet:

because then you're just thinking just that, what does that say about me?

Harriet:

If I can't actually do this and yet I'm compelled to do

Harriet:

it, where am I going to be?

Harriet:

So I think that adds that extra layer to that important imposter syndrome, really.

Tom:

The only thing that I can say to you and all of our listeners

Tom:

is there are authors at the top of their game who feel exactly the same.

Tom:

They can have their nearest and dearest and all of their fans screaming, you

Tom:

have written some of the most amazing characters and the most amazing stories.

Tom:

We have faith in you, we believe in you, that can't change the feeling inside you.

Harriet:

No.

Harriet:

And I think I actually thought it would go away when I got published.

Harriet:

I thought, oh I'll be allowed to write then because I'll be a published author.

Harriet:

But actually it got worse because I thought, oh, no, but I got to write

Harriet:

just like a published author now.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

How long did This Shining Life take to write.

Tom:

From when you started the page to when you'd finished a draft and

Tom:

you're like, okay, I'm going to start sending this off to people.

Harriet:

That was, I think two and a half years.

Harriet:

It might even be three years by the time I, yeah, I think it was probably three

Harriet:

years by the time I started sending out.

Harriet:

Yeah.

Harriet:

Nicole Krauss was seven years between her first and her second, I think.

Harriet:

In the end, there's nothing we can do.

Harriet:

I, I'm trying my best to get this second book out.

Harriet:

I think the mistake I made, actually, was I thought, oh, I'm going to

Harriet:

have to do this really quickly.

Harriet:

And I didn't actually give myself time, once I got the book deal, to

Harriet:

just take in the fact that my first book was going to be published.

Harriet:

I thought my first book's going to be published, I better write the second.

Harriet:

And I literally didn't take even like a week to just take in this huge event.

Harriet:

And I think that's partly what happened.

Harriet:

Is that my, it just frazzled my brain.

Tom:

You work part time as well.

Tom:

And so how has it been writing around a job?

Tom:

Has it been fairly flexible?

Tom:

Is it just on your days off?

Tom:

How do you manage the work-life balance now that you have a

Tom:

publisher and expectations?

Harriet:

I'm very lucky that I do work part time.

Harriet:

That is a luxury and privilege.

Harriet:

And my job is on the registrar births, deaths and marriages.

Harriet:

So it's endlessly interesting, which is great.

Harriet:

And I get to see people from every walk of life.

Harriet:

So I'm completely engaged with people all the time.

Harriet:

So that's really stimulating and lovely, but it's also a job with

Harriet:

rules, but there's only one way that you can register a birth and there's

Harriet:

only one way you can register a death.

Harriet:

And if you make a mistake, there's only one thing you can do.

Harriet:

So it's really not easy, but I know what I'm doing, always.

Harriet:

So for me, it's just the perfect antidote for writing.

Harriet:

Because when I'm writing, I don't know what I'm doing at all and I'm going flying

Harriet:

off in all sorts of different directions and I break rules and then I make rules.

Harriet:

So I feel very lucky that I have this job that is very calming for the mind

Harriet:

and yet at the same time stimulating.

Harriet:

So I basically at the moment work two days a week as a registrar and

Harriet:

then I have three days all in a row to write, and then I have a weekend

Harriet:

off, which is really wonderful.

Harriet:

But the discipline for me is to really not think, oh I'll go to the dentist

Harriet:

on my day off, or I'll meet someone for lunch, or no, I'm sorry, I'm writing.

Harriet:

It's not actually my days off.

Harriet:

It's actually my other job.

Harriet:

And the other thing I have to do is go, I am going to have a weekend.

Harriet:

I'm not going to get up at seven o'clock and just do a few hundred words.

Harriet:

I am going to have a weekend and have a rest.

Tom:

Well, that's good.

Tom:

Do you still journal on the weekends?

Harriet:

No.

Harriet:

I have a lie-in, I do nothing.

Harriet:

I don't think in words,

Tom:

That's good.

Tom:

That's sounds very healthy as well.

Tom:

And that's good.

Tom:

And is your working schedule the same now as it was when you

Tom:

began This Shining Life, or has that changed through that time?

Harriet:

I did drop a day's work after I got my book deal, which

Harriet:

is again, an absolute luxury.

Harriet:

And I feel very lucky to have been able to do that.

Harriet:

And it just happened that it worked out very well for the office to have me

Harriet:

work the beginning and end of the week.

Harriet:

And nobody else wanted to do that.

Harriet:

It was awful for taking a long weekend, but it's perfect for me.

Harriet:

Cause it bookends my writing and it gives me three days straight so I can

Harriet:

actually get into a bit of a rhythm.

Tom:

So it's office job Monday, writing Tuesday, Wednesday,

Tom:

Thursday, office job Friday.

Tom:

Oh, wow.

Tom:

Cool.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

And you're right, I don't think there's many people who want it.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

I just want work Monday and Friday please.

Tom:

No, no long weekends.

Tom:

That's great.

Tom:

Um, So there's this old adage that writing is rewriting.

Tom:

But how do you rewrite your work?

Tom:

Do you complete drafts or do you just rework individual scenes?

Harriet:

I generally, because I tend to think in episodes anyway and create

Harriet:

particular scenes or generally get a scene right and then move on, but

Harriet:

I won't get it absolutely perfect.

Harriet:

Because I have learned through the editing process that you're just

Harriet:

gonna end up changing so much.

Harriet:

It's just pointless getting it totally word perfect.

Harriet:

I think I do have to have the scene itself right before I go onto the next scene.

Harriet:

So I wouldn't just go right to the end of the draft no matter.

Harriet:

I have to have some things that I feel are kind of presentable really

Harriet:

to myself and that I believe in.

Harriet:

And I think that's the problem for me with word counts is that it's no good

Harriet:

if I don't believe in what I've written.

Tom:

And when you're going over these episodes or scenes

Tom:

how do you know when to stop?

Tom:

What is it?

Tom:

Do you read it aloud?

Tom:

Is there a certain flow?

Harriet:

I suppose it's when I know the tension is right.

Harriet:

So when I know that if I was to read, yeah, I do read it aloud to myself to

Harriet:

get the rhythm, but it's also that I need to know that I'm being taken somewhere.

Harriet:

So I have to imagine that I don't know what's happening and think, am

Harriet:

I being taken anywhere in this scene?

Harriet:

And as soon as I feel like, yeah, there's a parabola really, we're

Harriet:

going from this place to this place, then I know that scene is ready.

Harriet:

And then I'll read it aloud to make sure that it doesn't sound clumsy really.

Harriet:

And then I won't do all the kinds of polishing of sentences until

Harriet:

I know the whole story is right.

Tom:

And was This Shining Life your first experience of a, a professional editor?

Tom:

And if so, how was that experience?

Harriet:

Wonderful.

Harriet:

Just this experience of somebody kind of getting out your book and saying,

Harriet:

"Right, this works, this doesn't" and this kind of very intelligent eye on

Harriet:

it, just being taken so seriously.

Harriet:

It was absolutely wonderful.

Harriet:

Plus, having someone say, "Right, you do need to do this."

Harriet:

And me thinking, "Really?

Harriet:

I can't possibly do it."

Harriet:

And then starting to do it and think she was completely right.

Harriet:

That's absolutely transformed the book.

Harriet:

It was really amazing.

Harriet:

And also the other thing I quite enjoyed was pushing back.

Harriet:

Because I'm not really a very argumentative person,

Harriet:

but because it was my work.

Harriet:

Sometimes my editor would make a suggestion and I'd

Harriet:

say, no I'm not changing that.

Harriet:

And I quite enjoyed the whole process of arguing that back and forth.

Harriet:

Cause it really made me think, yes, there is a reason why I put that in the book.

Harriet:

I want that there in that particular place for that reason.

Harriet:

So it really made me feel much more sure of myself, but I really

Harriet:

did enjoy having that input.

Tom:

And how long was the editing process, once a professional

Tom:

editor involved in those rewrites?

Tom:

How long was that process for you?

Harriet:

It was really lengthly actually, because two reasons: I had two editors.

Harriet:

So we very quickly got a deal in America as well as here.

Harriet:

The two editors um, in America and here both decided to work together.

Harriet:

So they discussed what they thought the main big points

Harriet:

were that needed to be changed.

Harriet:

The massive structural edits.

Harriet:

They agreed them with me.

Harriet:

I did one set and then I anticipated doing another set with my American

Harriet:

editor, but that didn't happen.

Harriet:

Because it turns out she was very ill.

Harriet:

So I got as far as I could with the UK, and then she said, now I'm ready

Harriet:

to do some more deep editing with you.

Harriet:

And I was doing that and then really tragically when she died.

Harriet:

Right when we were in the middle of doing these kind of big structural

Harriet:

edits, which were like a second round.

Harriet:

And it was awful.

Harriet:

It was a really dreadful thing.

Harriet:

And we were halfway through, so we had created a, we created something that was

Harriet:

changed, but it hadn't changed completely.

Harriet:

And I didn't really know where she was going with it.

Harriet:

So then I had to take everything out.

Harriet:

So it was actually really grueling and also obviously very upsetting.

Harriet:

So there ended up being basically an extra year of editing on This

Harriet:

Shining Life, which, you know, meant that I really worked on it.

Harriet:

And by the time I finished with it, I really knew exactly how I wanted it.

Harriet:

But it was hard as well.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

No, it sounds it.

Tom:

That's quite shocking.

Tom:

And so from the submission draft to the final project, how do you feel,

Tom:

how do you feel about the changes and the story as it is now in published

Tom:

form versus what you first submitted?

Harriet:

Well, I think it's a lot better.

Harriet:

There was a character in, I had to take out a whole character basically.

Harriet:

There was this character in there who was very wispy and um, I

Harriet:

thought she was really interesting.

Harriet:

She had curly hair that was always in a mess and she wasn't

Harriet:

very confident and, she was me.

Harriet:

Once we chucked her out, it was just suddenly seemed a

Harriet:

lot better novel actually.

Harriet:

So yeah, I think it is better.

Harriet:

It's a lot tighter.

Harriet:

There's a lot more connection between the characters and it was

Harriet:

probably a tad darker, to be honest.

Harriet:

From the first draft that I submitted, we've probably just

Harriet:

made it slightly more pleasant.

Tom:

And when it came to the final version.

Tom:

How involved were you in the marketing or the book covers?

Tom:

Cause, it's a beautiful book.

Tom:

And the creation of that book cover and how it's marketed,

Tom:

how involved were you in that?

Harriet:

I was given various versions of what might work for the cover.

Harriet:

I find it quite hard to to really know what was good.

Harriet:

Because I felt like I don't know the marketing and there was one cover

Harriet:

that really came up at the beginning, which I wasn't really that sure about.

Harriet:

And I kept saying, oh, can we have it a bit more, can there

Harriet:

be a bit more shine to it?

Harriet:

But I didn't have the confidence to say, no, I really don't like it.

Harriet:

Cause I thought they must have come up with it for a reason.

Harriet:

Maybe this is exactly the market they want to go for.

Harriet:

But then when they presented me with the one that we've got now, I was just

Harriet:

like, this is absolutely beautiful.

Harriet:

And I know it's absolutely right.

Harriet:

But in terms of little bit of tweaking, could I have more pink

Harriet:

flowers and that kind of thing, I did have a little bit of say there.

Harriet:

And I was really, and I think I had said I'd love it if there

Harriet:

was a magpie on the front.

Harriet:

There was a bit of input, but I think it was teamwork really.

Harriet:

And obviously the designer who's just done such a fantastic job.

Tom:

And obviously, you know, it's going down the traditional publishing route.

Tom:

So they have a marketing department and getting it out in front of people.

Tom:

But how comfortable are you in promoting your own work?

Tom:

Has that been something that you've done and how you feel about it?

Harriet:

I was hoping I wouldn't have to and I don't feel very comfortable with it.

Harriet:

Although as time goes on, I'm getting much better about it because

Harriet:

I've just realized you have to.

Harriet:

And what I've realized, cause at first I thought oh well, I can't

Harriet:

keep saying, oh, I've published a book and it's called This Shining Life.

Harriet:

It just felt really awkward.

Harriet:

And I felt like I would be too much and people didn't want to hear it.

Harriet:

And I've just realized what people don't want to hear someone saying, oh,

Harriet:

I've written a book, oh well, you know.

Harriet:

People actually do want to know.

Harriet:

And it's just part of the job.

Harriet:

What I didn't realize is you get yourself a loving pitch when you're going for

Harriet:

an agent, you write your elevator pitch and then write your slightly longer

Harriet:

pitch and you get all that perfect.

Harriet:

And then I thought, oh, it's done now.

Harriet:

I've got an agent.

Harriet:

But actually you have to keep pitching it because you have to keep saying to a

Harriet:

bookshop, do you want to stock my book?

Harriet:

It's about a boy, blah, blah, blah.

Harriet:

You know?

Harriet:

So I've realized you've just got to not mind, you know, cause I'm

Harriet:

convinced, that people don't want to hear me going on about it, but

Harriet:

I think that's my imagination.

Harriet:

And even if they don't, I've got to go, that's too bad.

Harriet:

If this is what I'm doing, I'm going to try and get my book out there.

Tom:

And what's your opinion of social media as a published author now in 2021?

Tom:

Is it essential?

Harriet:

I think it probably is, unfortunately.

Harriet:

I don't enjoy it.

Harriet:

To me, it feels like being at a party and you're just trying to edge

Harriet:

your way in all the time and, you know, have your little say and it

Harriet:

just doesn't, I just don't enjoy it.

Harriet:

But I think book Twitter and book Instagram are

Harriet:

actually really quite lovely.

Harriet:

Actually people are really supportive, when I've met

Harriet:

lots of writers through that.

Harriet:

And discovered new work to read and things.

Harriet:

So I think it is really, I think it is pretty much essential.

Harriet:

You've got to have a presence out there and you've got to

Harriet:

find a way of being genuine.

Harriet:

I think you can really tell when someone's on there.

Harriet:

Literally, if the only thing they want to do is mention that book and nothing else.

Harriet:

But it's, it doesn't feel like it nourishes me, but I'm hoping that it

Harriet:

nourishes the general kind of book world.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

You mentioned there with book Twitter and book Instagram, meeting other writers.

Tom:

Do you feel now that you have a network of peers?

Harriet:

Yeah.

Harriet:

Yeah, very much.

Harriet:

I am on a Facebook group for people who've debuted in 20, in 2021.

Harriet:

And that for me, cause we do it on zoom calls, has been best of all.

Harriet:

Because I do prefer that face-to-face interaction.

Harriet:

But again, just being on this, it's a private group and just people being able

Harriet:

to say, oh, what do I say to my publicist?

Harriet:

I don't like what they said, you know about this, or, how

Harriet:

do I mention such and such.

Harriet:

You know, So I found that really helpful, just sharing our woes

Harriet:

and sharing our joy, look at this I'm in the garden, whatever it is.

Harriet:

So that's been really wonderful, but also just, yeah, Twitter has been really good

Harriet:

just to see other people's journey as they gone through their publishing life.

Tom:

Yeah, I think so, I can see the benefits of it.

Tom:

But also there is that dark side to Twitter when things are taken out of

Tom:

context or people take a disliking to something you've written or how

Tom:

they've perceived a story that you've written and and I sometimes think

Tom:

people are very critical of others to avoid being criticized themselves.

Harriet:

Yeah.

Harriet:

And I think the other thing about Twitter is it's not all about what you say.

Harriet:

It's also about what you read, and, I don't just go on there to

Harriet:

promote my book or to put my opinion about the environment out there.

Harriet:

I also go on there to see what other people have got

Harriet:

to say and what I can learn.

Harriet:

And I've learned an awful lot from other writers.

Harriet:

From them saying, this is how I've approached this, or

Harriet:

today I'm feeling like this.

Harriet:

It's also a resource.

Tom:

Yes.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

It can be very useful.

Tom:

And actually I want to say, I have this belief that writers grow and develop their

Tom:

writing with each story that they write.

Tom:

Now, although you're coming off the back of your first published novel,

Tom:

you've been writing for 10 years.

Tom:

There's two things I want to ask specifically.

Tom:

One, was there anything particular that you learned from that novel, the last

Tom:

story that you wrote, that you're now applying to your current novel that you

Tom:

actually learned through that process?

Harriet:

Yeah, the, I suppose there is, there's one is

Harriet:

wispy characters don't work.

Harriet:

So characters who are passive, your characters do actually

Harriet:

have to have an intent.

Harriet:

Even if that's not necessarily, I'm going to go out and do something dramatic.

Harriet:

They do have to be intent on something.

Harriet:

So I've definitely learnt that.

Harriet:

And I've learned don't write yourself into the books.

Harriet:

It's never as interesting as you think.

Harriet:

I think the thing I've really learned is to have a sense of being taken

Harriet:

somewhere from one place to the other, whenever you're writing a scene.

Harriet:

It's just making sure that it's actually taking your reader to the next stage.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

And the other thing I wanted to ask was, is there one piece of

Tom:

advice you find yourself returning to each time that you write?

Harriet:

Yeah.

Harriet:

Keep going.

Tom:

That's fair that you've got to turn up.

Tom:

You got to do the job.

Tom:

Okay.

Tom:

Excellent.

Tom:

That's where we'll finish it.

Tom:

Harriet.

Tom:

That's thank you so much for being my guest this evening and enjoy your holiday.

Tom:

And I really look forward to reading your next book and just

Tom:

take time with it and keep going.

Tom:

Good advice for all of our listeners as well.

Tom:

If you're writing, keep going.

Tom:

And that was the real writing process of Harriet Klein.

Tom:

If you're wondering why I wrapped up the interview so quickly and didn't

Tom:

give Harriet a chance to say goodbye.

Tom:

It's because the connection cut out and I was trying to be professional.

Tom:

However, I'm pretty sure you can hear my panic rising with every elongated

Tom:

"and" that I uttered whilst working out how to end that interview.

Tom:

Anyway, if you'd like to find out more about Harriet and her

Tom:

stories, uh, please do check out her website, harrietklein.com.

Tom:

Uh, you can also find Harriet on Twitter under the handle @hareandHarriet.

Tom:

That's hare like a large rabbit, not hair on your head.

Tom:

And this week, I'm going to ask you to follow me on Twitter as well.

Tom:

There's a good chance you follow me already, but if you don't, my handle is

Tom:

@therealwriting1 with the number one at the end, uh, because the real writing

Tom:

process is too long for a name on Twitter.

Tom:

And it was the nearest thing I could think of.

Tom:

Anyway, the reason I would like to have you as a follower is

Tom:

because soon I'll be making some announcements about season two.

Tom:

And the future of this podcast.

Tom:

And it'd be really nice to give you a heads up and listen to

Tom:

any feedback you'd like to give.

Tom:

Unless, of course, you're listening to this a long time after 2021.

Tom:

In that case, you know what changes I've made and this whole section is redundant.

Tom:

Anyway.

Tom:

Uh, please follow me, please follow the Harriet.

Tom:

And until next time, my friends.

Tom:

Or.

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About the Podcast

The Real Writing Process
Interviewing writers about how they work
Interviews with award winning writers as well as emerging talent on how they manage their day to day process of writing for a living. Hear how the professionals approach structure, plot and imposter syndrome, as well as what they like to drink.
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