Episode 505

full
Published on:

17th Nov 2024

The Real Writing Process of Sean Lusk

Tom Pepperdine interviews the wonderful historical fiction author, Sean Lusk, about his writing process. Sean discusses the benefits of writing retreats, why he based his second book on Mary Wartley Montague, and how he literally runs away from his writing problems in a forest in the Highlands.

Sean's website is here: https://www.seanlusk.com/

And you can find more information about this podcast on the following links:

https://bsky.app/profile/realwritingpro.bsky.social

https://www.threads.net/@realwritingpro

https://www.instagram.com/realwritingpro

Transcript
Tom:

Hello, and welcome to the real writing process.

Tom:

I'm your host, Tom Pepperdine.

Tom:

And this week my guest is the historical fiction writer, sean Lusk.

Tom:

Sean is an award-winning short story writer that made the transition to

Tom:

novels with the excellent book, The Second Sight of Zachary cloudsley.

Tom:

His second novel, A Woman of Opinion, is out now.

Tom:

And this interview actually took place while he was in the middle of writing it.

Tom:

So you'll get an excellent idea of what excited Sean about the

Tom:

project and why he wrote it.

Tom:

There's not been a lot of benefits to my health battles, but the delay

Tom:

on getting this episode out seems to have worked in Sean's favor.

Tom:

So if you're a fan of his work, please enjoy.

Tom:

And if you've not read Sean's books, buy them, love them and listen

Tom:

again, because he's a wonderful man.

Tom:

And I appreciate the time he gave to discuss his writing process.

Tom:

Here we go.

Tom:

And I'd like to welcome Sean Lusk to The Real Writing Process.

Tom:

Hello, Sean.

Sean:

Hi, Tom.

Sean:

Lovely to meet you.

Tom:

Lovely to meet you.

Tom:

And my first question, as always, what are we drinking?

Sean:

Well, it possibly sounds a bit feeble, but it's

Sean:

a decaf coffee with oat milk.

Tom:

Yes.

Sean:

I did grind the beans to make it, you know, proper.

Tom:

I did not.

Tom:

I pre ground, so I'm cheating, but I'm lactose intolerant, so oat milk is a joy.

Sean:

I love oat milk and I don't know whether we should

Sean:

recommend brands, probably not.

Sean:

But, uh, Oatly, Oatly whole is totally my favorite and the others

Sean:

don't quite compare, but yeah.

Tom:

Have you tried oatly barista?

Sean:

Yeah.

Sean:

And that's very, very good in the gray packet.

Sean:

I like that very much.

Tom:

It's my own show.

Tom:

I have no sponsorship, so I'm absolutely happy to mention brands,

Tom:

especially as I do love oat milk.

Tom:

And if Oatly wants to send me a crate, I'm all on board.

Tom:

Yeah.

Sean:

Yeah, me too.

Tom:

So there we are, Oatly.

Tom:

You've got two fans, you know.

Tom:

Get your marketing people to do their thing.

Tom:

Um, And, uh, yeah.

Tom:

So is this your, your daily drink?

Tom:

Are you not a caffeine person?

Sean:

I sometimes have a, a caffeine coffee first thing, but I do drink quite

Sean:

a lot of coffee, but it's not necessarily good for your long term health.

Tom:

No, no.

Tom:

And, uh, yeah, I've already had a caffeine coffee this morning.

Tom:

So to make sure that I'm not too manic for the rest of the

Tom:

day, it's, it's a good idea.

Tom:

So I'm, I'm very on board with this.

Tom:

And where I'm speaking to you now, is this your, your writing desk?

Tom:

Is this, uh, where the magic happens?

Sean:

Yeah, it is.

Sean:

It is.

Sean:

I've got a view of the Findhorn river from the window.

Sean:

Yeah, it's a spectacular, you know, up in the Highlands.

Sean:

Well, we, we do miss out on the endless hot weather so it's a bit hazy.

Sean:

It's quite warm, but the Highlands is beautiful.

Sean:

So in Forres, up on the Moray Firth, beautiful.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

I love the Highlands of Scotland, and so does my wife.

Tom:

And it is our dream to retire to Scotland because Yes, it's hot,

Tom:

but it's 30 degrees hot today.

Tom:

And there's just a melting point that I hit where I just don't want to go outside.

Tom:

And I'm much more of a cold weather person.

Tom:

I'm a January birth.

Tom:

I'm a, I'm a winter baby.

Tom:

So, knowing the possibilities of snow and fireplaces and yeah, I find it easier

Tom:

to keep warm than it is to cool down.

Sean:

Yeah.

Sean:

Well, you can do that most of the year up here.

Sean:

It's, it's absolutely glorious.

Sean:

I mean, Why shouldn't we encourage people to come?

Sean:

I mean, Nairn, you know, Nairn has most incredible beaches.

Sean:

You could be in the Caribbean, apart from the weather, it could be

Sean:

the Caribbean when you walk along these wide, sandy beaches, empty,

Sean:

with beautiful forests behind them.

Sean:

Uh, it, it really, really is fabulous.

Sean:

And of course the East coast, people tend to go to the West coast and

Sean:

then complain about midges and rain.

Sean:

We don't really get that on the East coast and it's really gorgeous as well.

Tom:

Yeah, absolutely.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

So are you very much a writing at home person?

Tom:

Is this rather than going coffee shop?

Sean:

Ah, that's, that's a good question for a writer.

Sean:

I mean, I'm lucky.

Sean:

I've got a desk with a nice view and a study and I do write at home.

Sean:

But I love writing away as well.

Sean:

So, a train is a fabulous place to write.

Sean:

There's a table, cafe, there's something magical about the sort

Sean:

of background noise of a cafe.

Sean:

That's sort of, I don't know, it's like a cocoon.

Tom:

Yeah.

Sean:

You can just write in there.

Sean:

And a couple of times a year, and maybe a bit more, I go away for

Sean:

a week with a bunch of writing friends, and it's just spectacular.

Sean:

And the amount of writing I can get done there of, you know, of actually good

Sean:

quality, you know, rather than just, okay.

Sean:

I try and knock out 2000 words a day if I can, but obviously they're not

Sean:

always high quality, but when we go away we go to this house on the North

Sean:

York Moors with a bunch of other writers and we do chat a bit and go for

Sean:

walks, but we try and write all day.

Sean:

And then the evening's one of us cooks a meal and we just chat

Sean:

about what we've been writing.

Sean:

And it's so good.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

And, um, so how long have you been doing those writing retreats?

Tom:

How long has that been?

Sean:

Yeah, it's a long time.

Sean:

And I mean, the group has changed a little bit over the years, but

Sean:

I'd say it's a good 15, 16 years.

Sean:

So at least two or three of us have been continuous.

Sean:

And now the group has settled down into a pretty sort of stable group.

Sean:

So, um, so Tanya Hirschman, Rosie Garland, um, quite a few other nice writers

Sean:

is just, and they're just brilliant.

Sean:

And having people who are poets as well as prose writers.

Sean:

A poet just hears if a, if a line doesn't work in a way.

Tom:

Yes.

Sean:

It's just immediate and incredible.

Tom:

Yes.

Tom:

The cadence and the rhythms of it.

Sean:

Yeah.

Sean:

Yeah, yeah.

Tom:

Oh, that's so good.

Tom:

And I think because a lot of people associate writing as such

Tom:

a solitary business, to actually have that small community of,

Tom:

uh, people is just brilliant.

Sean:

And we talk to each other, I think another way, well, you know, we can just,

Sean:

we're feeling down or whatever, or have a difficult time and just drop an email.

Sean:

And I've got another, another group in London who we're also really in

Sean:

touch with each other and supportive.

Sean:

We did a Curtis Brown creative course together in 2015 and

Sean:

we've all kept in touch.

Sean:

There's 15 of us, and I think we're all in touch one way or another seven

Sean:

years later, which is just, you know.

Tom:

That's awesome.

Tom:

And the time of day that you write, are you someone who, uh, is an early

Tom:

morning writer, do you prefer to wait until everyone goes to bed, or do you

Tom:

just treat it like a nine to five?

Sean:

Uh, early morning, good.

Sean:

If I can get cracking sort of, early, but you know, eight ish or whatever.

Sean:

Well, I like to go for a run in the mornings, but I did

Sean:

break my ankle not long ago.

Sean:

So it's sort of, I'm more or less back to it now.

Sean:

So my ideal day is to sort of go for a run fairly early in one of the

Sean:

beautiful forests nearby and then crack on with writing rest of the day.

Sean:

And I find when I'm running, you know, absolutely subconsciously, but I always

Sean:

come back and I've got some lines of dialogue or I've solved a plot problem

Sean:

or always I've run with my characters.

Sean:

that's a lovely feeling.

Sean:

And generally by about three, if I'm still writing, I'm not writing very well.

Tom:

The 20000 limit cutoff, is it generally the same few hours, or is it

Tom:

some days that you just go, you know what?

Tom:

I'm just going to edit today.

Sean:

Oh yeah, definitely.

Sean:

I mean, ideally I'd write every day, but I think some of the stock advice that

Sean:

you get in the " how to write" books or course, you know, uh, write every day.

Tom:

Yeah.

Sean:

I'm not sure, you know, not every day's right for writing.

Sean:

I think life, got to get on with life, whatever that involves.

Sean:

And I, I really love it if I can set aside a good few days and just write.

Sean:

I find that the writing flows much more easily on days, three, four,

Sean:

five, than it does on day one.

Tom:

Yeah.

Sean:

So to know that I've got a week when I can write every day, I know I'm

Sean:

going to get a lot of writing done.

Sean:

If it's sporadic, less so, and, you know, write what, you know.

Sean:

I'd always say, write what you don't know, because it's in that adventure in

Sean:

the unknown where the imagination sparks.

Sean:

Cause of course, you know, you are you, and you're going to write what

Sean:

you know on one level, but don't endeavor to write what you know.

Sean:

Why not try what you don't know.

Sean:

And it's much more exciting then.

Tom:

Well, yeah.

Tom:

And also, I guess, you know, as a historical fiction writer, there is

Tom:

a natural amount of research that is required to do that, just to

Tom:

find your inspiration, but also to have a certain level of accuracy.

Tom:

So I will go on to research in a second, but I just want to

Tom:

know about your plot outlines.

Tom:

Are you someone who has a plot in mind and then finds the facts to fit, or

Tom:

are you someone who will research the subject and the plot just naturally

Tom:

comes apparent through your research?

Sean:

Well, the thing is the current book is the story.

Sean:

Mary Wortley Montague was a real character, so I had sort of half set plot.

Sean:

And I mean her life is so, you might come on to that, her life

Sean:

is so with extraordinary incident that, what I have to achieve

Sean:

this to make the plot plausible.

Sean:

Because actually it's a case of, you know, truth being stranger

Sean:

than fiction in many ways.

Sean:

With Zachary, which, you know, hopefully some of your

Sean:

listeners will have read and...

Tom:

Yes, I'm sure they have.

Sean:

Um, you know, I had a plot in mind and I did plot so I was

Sean:

kind of struggling a bit with the novel and I, I had a mentor, Liz

Sean:

Jensen, who's a wonderful writer.

Sean:

And she really was absolutely magical for me.

Sean:

And she got me to plot properly.

Sean:

Um, and encouraged me to think about plots.

Sean:

So I did have an almost sort of Dickens style, huge plot.

Sean:

And, and I did look at it recently.

Sean:

Um, I looked back and, and the book pays very little relation actually.

Sean:

But what I did do, and I think this is good advice, and this is advice

Sean:

that the writers find in sort of writing books is, for every character,

Sean:

even minor characters, do, I mean, I like spidergrams, they draw

Sean:

something and things go off, you know.

Sean:

And know what's in their pocket, know what they like for dinner.

Sean:

Know their loves and losses, you know, so that for every character, even though

Sean:

none of those strokes will necessarily be shown in the book, you as the writer

Sean:

have got a strong sense of who they are.

Sean:

And so, you know, Liz pushed me into doing that as well.

Sean:

And I think, again, even though I never really looked back at

Sean:

my notes, I then just wrote.

Tom:

Yeah.

Sean:

I think it shows because quite a lot of people who have read the book,

Sean:

and I love, you know, occasionally you get a message from somebody,

Sean:

through Instagram or whatever.

Sean:

And they said, uh, yeah, some people talk different characters

Sean:

in the book, obviously Zach, Abel and Francis and Grace Morley are

Sean:

the big characters in that book.

Sean:

Some people will say, I love, I loved Tom, who's

Tom:

Yep, I was going to say.

Tom:

Not just for my namesake, but yes, great character.

Sean:

Yeah, someone said, uh, Samuels.

Sean:

I could read a whole novel about Samuels.

Sean:

Well, Samuels is this servant who's actually very much in their character.

Sean:

But, you know, I kind of feel I know him quite well.

Sean:

So it's good if that came across in the novel.

Tom:

Yes.

Tom:

Oh, no, absolutely.

Tom:

I definitely feel that even with the small characters, uh, they're

Tom:

certainly not one dimensional.

Tom:

And there are certain characterizations and a level of mystery with Samuels,

Tom:

and definitely like life developments for Tom that happen off screen where

Tom:

you're just like, Oh, I want to like know more about these characters.

Tom:

So, yeah, I completely understand and agree that, that, that

Tom:

they're great characters.

Sean:

So on, on the greatplotter vs planner in the e question I'm

Sean:

somewhere between, and I think that's probably if I had to advise people

Sean:

to try and be somewhere in between.

Tom:

And, talking about great characters.

Tom:

Your latest character, uh, would you like to tell us, um, who the, our second

Tom:

book is based on or your second book?

Sean:

Yeah.

Sean:

So, um, Mary Wartley Montague.

Sean:

So in terms of talking to the publishers, uh, publishers tend to like your second

Sean:

book to, you know, to feel confident that it will appeal to a similar market.

Sean:

So, of course, I had other books to offer them, but, it just so happened that I, I'd

Sean:

realized at some point, one, one of the things that I read in terms of researching

Sean:

Zachary, partly because it's set in Constantinople in the 18th century, was

Sean:

Mary Whartley Montague's Turkish embassy letters, which are just phenomenal.

Sean:

And again, you know, she wrote those when she wrote them is possibly,

Sean:

uh, questionable, but I mean, she was there from around 17, 18.

Sean:

And she, uh, she wrote some, some of them were certainly letters

Sean:

that she wrote to her sister and, and, and, and friends and so on.

Sean:

Alexander Pope amongst others.

Sean:

She probably edited them quite a lot during her life.

Sean:

And in the end, they were only published by a series of incredible

Sean:

strokes of fortune, they were published after her death.

Sean:

They were very nearly lost.

Sean:

But if anyone reads them, they feel incredibly modern.

Sean:

It was only really at some point.

Sean:

And I, I can't think why this happened.

Sean:

I realized how much Aunt Francis in the Zachary novel was inspired by

Sean:

Mary's voice . Which you get, she's poet, quite a campaigning political

Sean:

figure, a proto feminist without doubt.

Sean:

An extraordinary figure and a medical pioneer, all, all

Sean:

those things wrapped up in one.

Sean:

And a woman of absolutely strong opinion.

Sean:

And I realized how much I'd been channeling unconsciously, really.

Sean:

So when I talked to, to Eloisa Clegg, who's my editor at Transworld,

Sean:

who, who's genuinely wonderful and so lovely to work with.

Sean:

And I mentioned, well, you know, I've kind of would like to write a novel about Mary

Sean:

Wortley Montague, she absolutely loved it.

Sean:

So I'm loving writing.

Sean:

I've got huge amounts of research that I've been doing.

Sean:

But, you know, it's all a joy because she's such a sort of interesting figure.

Sean:

And there are a lot of very good biographies, including

Sean:

one was quite recent.

Sean:

I don't know whether it's written to mark sort of COVID vaccination.

Sean:

But I mean, one of the things Mary did, and she really deserves to be recognized

Sean:

as a pioneer of, of inoculation.

Sean:

Because she brought smallpox inoculation back from Turkey.

Sean:

Her daughter was probably the first person to be inoculated

Sean:

in Britain against smallpox.

Sean:

So everyone's talked about Edward Jenner vaccination at

Sean:

the end of the 18th century.

Sean:

A lot of people haven't heard of Mary Wortley Montague.

Sean:

Why?

Sean:

Because she was a woman.

Sean:

And women get written out of history again and again and again.

Sean:

So there were some novels.

Sean:

I think there was one written in the fifties, 1950s, one of the 1920s,

Sean:

probably one in the 19th century.

Sean:

But I mean, they are very much of their times.

Sean:

So I'm hoping to bring Mary alive for people.

Sean:

I'm hoping to sort of go on a bit of campaign if they come out.

Tom:

Well, I mean, my level of research on Mary was literally

Tom:

just her Wikipedia entry.

Tom:

And reading that I was like, well, this is an adventure, but with like

Tom:

so many different acts and so many different things, like the early

Tom:

romance, that disapproving father to, you know, the travels across Europe.

Tom:

Um, the aspects of her later life and yes, you know, access into the

Tom:

female spaces of Constantinople.

Tom:

and yeah, like you say, her, her letters of that time just being so

Tom:

groundbreaking where you have these very privileged males doing like travel logs

Tom:

and very much that kind of old Etonian, colonialist view of their travels rather

Tom:

than getting into the culture in the way that she did, uh, just brilliant.

Sean:

Goodness knows those assumptions still apply.

Sean:

I mean, again, I spent a bit as there is with Zachary, hopefully that feeling that

Sean:

it's doesn't feel anachronistic of the 18th century, but it's got a modern feel.

Tom:

Yeah.

Sean:

Not hard to write in a modern way about Mary because, you know,

Sean:

she's born in 1689 and she's a woman that would absolutely thrive in 2022.

Sean:

You know, she really would.

Sean:

She'd probably be very much better qualified than many of

Sean:

the candidates can do the role.

Tom:

Yes.

Tom:

Oh gosh.

Tom:

Yeah.

Sean:

You know, she was very far sighted.

Sean:

She claims not to really be a politician, but she was steeped in

Sean:

politics from an early age, really.

Sean:

And she writes with this very ironic, Very funny tone.

Sean:

She'd be very, very funny.

Sean:

She proposed a septennial marriages act to every marriage because she was so

Sean:

concerned that women were so, generally women, opt into unhappy marriages.

Sean:

And of course, she was concerned that their money, of course, was

Sean:

then owned by their husbands.

Sean:

But she, um, she suggests that all marriages should automatically

Sean:

dissolve at seven years.

Sean:

So the parties could sort of decide whether they wanted

Sean:

to remarry at seven years.

Sean:

I thought it was serious.

Sean:

Then I thought maybe she was just being humorous.

Sean:

Um, but my further research suggests that she probably was serious.

Tom:

I, I love her questioning of the status quo and just

Tom:

being, well, this is nonsense.

Tom:

Why is it like that?

Tom:

Well, I'll just ignore it.

Tom:

Um, and from, from recent reading and uh, regular listeners of the show would

Tom:

have, uh, hopefully have read, uh, lessons in chemistry with Elizabeth

Tom:

Zott being a fictional character from the 1950s questioning authority.

Tom:

And I just felt there was that same energy through a real person that

Tom:

lived, you know, 300 years ago.

Tom:

And it was just like, absolutely incredible.

Sean:

Well, Bonnie Garmis, who's the author of Lessons in Chemistry

Sean:

and I talked to her, and we're hoping to do some things together.

Sean:

I'm a huge fan of Bonnie's book and of Elizabeth Zott, who is a great character.

Tom:

Yes.

Tom:

Um, and it's just lovely to see that people like this do exist and

Tom:

have existed and it is great to see.

Tom:

Um, I do want to go a bit more into your research now, cause obviously

Tom:

you did pan the camera for audio.

Tom:

I will describe there is a huge, person size timeline that is double lined.

Tom:

It's sort of printed off and you've got a map up on the wall.

Tom:

There's a lot of notes that you've taken.

Tom:

I don't need to ask if you're a prolific note taker, cause I have eyes.

Tom:

So you are, but can it be so, almost seductive, the

Tom:

research part of the planning.

Tom:

How do you know when to sort of like step away and go, okay, I have enough?

Sean:

That's an excellent question.

Sean:

so I'm just coming to the end of sort of research phase.

Sean:

So for me, research really intensively, I'm a novelist, you know, if I

Sean:

were writing a nonfiction book, the research would never stop.

Sean:

You'd be constantly changing sources.

Sean:

You try and make sure you had secondary and primary sources.

Sean:

If there are people alive that could help you, you'd want to interview them.

Sean:

I mean, with Zachary, I spent time in Istanbul and, and on

Sean:

the route that Zachary took.

Sean:

And I, I spent time in the British Library where you can get access

Sean:

in the antiquarian reading rooms, to sort of original sources.

Sean:

With Mary, you know, has been secondary sources so far, I'm hoping

Sean:

in the latter part, her last 20 years of her life, she lived in

Sean:

Avenue and then in Northern Italy.

Sean:

So I'm hoping to do that in September, just to sort of walk the streets

Sean:

she walked and see some of the places I think it's, um, the town

Sean:

of Laverie where there's at least a street named after her, which is

Sean:

more than she's got in, in England.

Sean:

There are a couple of memorials to Mary, but not well known.

Sean:

But I do think, I don't like a book where it feels anachronistic or

Sean:

it feels the research hasn't been done and you think is that right?

Sean:

And of course, if you look something up and I think a lot of readers, particularly

Sean:

historical fictional do this thing, did that really could that have happened?

Sean:

And they check it out and they thought, no, it couldn't have.

Sean:

It can blow your confidence in the book.

Sean:

So the research has got to be right.

Sean:

But equally, I think if the research pokes through and, and I've certainly

Sean:

read one or two sort of historical novels recently, where you know, you

Sean:

can see the authors so eager to show their research that's awful too.

Sean:

So for me, it's sort of three, four months of very intensive research.

Sean:

So I feel I own the story and then I write the story kind of without looking back.

Sean:

I mean, obviously I'll check things out occasionally, what's

Sean:

the date here or whatever.

Sean:

But generally I won't look, I just want to write the story, the

Sean:

characters, and not have the research sort of too heavily on the page.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

And with so many events in Mary's life, has it been quite difficult to establish

Tom:

which story you're going to tell?

Tom:

Because I feel that there are definitive sections.

Tom:

And to try and do it all is just going to be a massive tome, and especially

Tom:

as you're doing it as a fiction.

Sean:

Yeah.

Tom:

And finding the narrative that you want to tell.

Sean:

Yeah.

Tom:

Um, where have you decided to, are you doing the latter half, the beginning?

Sean:

Well, it's a good question, and I haven't done the sort of, got

Sean:

to the end and structurally edited yet, so I think it is a question.

Sean:

I mean the way I have written it so far is, a lot of it's Mary's voice.

Sean:

So every voice is first person, but we have Mary's voice, but we also

Sean:

have Edward, her husband's voice, who's got a very different voice

Sean:

because he was such a different man.

Sean:

It's a very strong, a very cool, quite a cool marriage.

Sean:

In that sense, there was passion always on Mary's side,

Sean:

not necessarily for Edward.

Sean:

She's always passionate about things.

Sean:

Edward, absolutely a very dispassionate character.

Sean:

Her sister, who, who's such a interesting character herself.

Sean:

Her sister Francis, who ends up marrying, John Erskine, the

Sean:

Earl of Mar, who's a Jacobite.

Sean:

So you've got all the Jacobite stuff going on.

Sean:

I mean, I'm already, you know, you can tell it could be a baggy story,

Sean:

but I hope it, I hope it won't be.

Sean:

So we hear from one or two other characters and I have invented, uh,

Sean:

one character who's an amalgamation of her servants, because I think very

Sean:

good to have the servants observation.

Sean:

But yeah, I mean, obviously, she elopes with Edward.

Sean:

So that, that's quite a big part of the life.

Tom:

I just wanna interrupt on that bit 'cause I think it'd be

Tom:

fascinating for our listeners.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

Going on the comment you said earlier about how the truth in

Tom:

the fiction and Oh, that would never happen and stuff like that.

Tom:

The name of her other suitor, when I saw it, I thought, well,

Tom:

that sounds like a made up name.

Tom:

If you put in that name, no one's gonna believe it.

Sean:

I know.

Tom:

Can you tell the listeners?

Sean:

Yes.

Sean:

So Clotworthy Skeffington was uh, the man.

Sean:

Clotworthy Skeffington?

Sean:

So Mary and her sister, she had, um Two sisters and a brother, but she was

Sean:

closest to Francis, Fanny, her sister, who's just slightly younger than her.

Sean:

Yeah.

Sean:

Um, her mother died very early on as was so common.

Sean:

So she really hardly knew her mother.

Sean:

She and her sister were very close, but she was quite, estranged

Sean:

from the rest of, her family.

Sean:

Her father was a very powerful man.

Sean:

And you know, marriages were arranged.

Sean:

And of course he, her father was the Earl of Kingston, but, it was a

Sean:

powerful Whig and it was the early period of the Whig ascendancy.

Sean:

He was made the Marquess of Dorchester.

Sean:

And And what he wanted for his daughters was, were these very complicated marriage

Sean:

arrangements, which is what you had throughout the 18th and 19th centuries.

Sean:

Where, you know, families would combine and combine and they'd be combining

Sean:

their wealth and estates essentially.

Sean:

But I mean, he didn't like Mary very much.

Sean:

He found her.

Sean:

Well, you know, I'm obviously using artistic license because I'm a novelist.

Sean:

This is what you can do.

Sean:

And I'm, I've tried to work out his psychology towards and

Sean:

what he really thought of her.

Sean:

And I think he found her somewhat threatening and she

Sean:

always did have strong opinions.

Sean:

She always went over, over and around him to speak to his powerful

Sean:

friends in the whig ascendancy.

Sean:

And, and, you know, he was friends with William Congreve

Sean:

and, you know, very famous, uh, Richard Steele, Joseph Addington.

Sean:

You know, he knew all these people well, and so did she, and she made sure she had

Sean:

friendships and used those friendships.

Sean:

So why he chose Clotworthy Skeffington, who was the heir

Sean:

to uh, a Viscountcy in Ireland.

Tom:

Yeah.

Sean:

And she, and, and Mary and Francis, categorized men

Sean:

as heavens, hells, and limbo's.

Sean:

And Mary was very clear that this man was hell.

Sean:

He was hell.

Sean:

And she wasn't going to have a bit of it.

Sean:

And the fights she had with the father over this.

Sean:

So obviously the sum is recorded and obviously I've imagined, because

Sean:

we don't have records of the actual fights, so I can make that up, you know.

Tom:

It's just so rich for storytelling though.

Tom:

Just reading that whole endeavor, I was just like, well, this is pure

Tom:

Austen, but this actually happened.

Sean:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tom:

And it's just incredible and yeah, Clotworthy Skeffington is

Tom:

just like, well, you couldn't make more of a villain name, you know.

Tom:

I mean, and it's just, the character writes itself.

Sean:

Yes.

Tom:

You know, who is that?

Tom:

Like, is it nominative determinism?

Tom:

It's just, it's, it's so there.

Sean:

Yes.

Sean:

That's right.

Sean:

And almost you want to steer clear of some of those things in writing, but he

Sean:

really was called that, it's irresistible.

Sean:

So, uh, there he is.

Sean:

And, you know, her relationship with Edwards, who she sort of

Sean:

flirted with in letters, which wasn't really the done thing then.

Sean:

Men and women, you know, who weren't related, shouldn't

Sean:

really be writing to each other.

Sean:

And, you know, it really blew hot and cold in an incredible way.

Sean:

So yes, I certainly write about their elopement.

Sean:

But she always knew really that Edward was a limbo and who her, who her heavens were.

Sean:

Uh, of course she had a heaven much later in life who she..

Tom:

We'll keep that under wraps for the, uh, the readers.

Tom:

Cause yeah, I, I, I've read a bit, but I, I want to read your book, Sean.

Tom:

I want your take on it.

Sean:

Yeah.

Sean:

Yeah.

Sean:

Well, I better get on.

Sean:

Yeah.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

Um, and so you're coming to the end of structural edits and

Tom:

how is that process for you?

Tom:

Because obviously you've, got one, novel out in the world and you do

Tom:

describe yourself as a novelist, but you come from a short story background.

Sean:

Yeah.

Tom:

And so having these big structural edits, how is it second

Tom:

time round compared to the first novel?

Sean:

Well, it's two things because I'd like to touch on short stories as well,

Sean:

but I think with Zachary, I'd worked on it so much and edited it so much.

Sean:

And then when it was picked up to my, my agent, David Headley kind

Sean:

of, I, it was just like the dream.

Sean:

But I mean, the dream had been 20 years in the coming.

Sean:

I said to him and he was on the phone saying, we've got to talk, we've to talk.

Sean:

And I don't think I picked up the call, so it was sort of, uh,

Sean:

yeah, he called me, I think on a Thursday and said, send me the rest.

Sean:

And I thought, well, I'll, I'll hear in a month or something.

Sean:

And then the next day that I've read it, I want to, you know, can we talk?

Sean:

So we had this amazing conversation and he sold it within a week to transfer.

Sean:

So that was a very dreamy moment.

Sean:

Then because, because I think I've worked on it so much and I had

Sean:

Liz Jensen as a mentor as well.

Sean:

I think it was in very good, very good nick.

Sean:

You know, when eloise when we first talked to her, I don't think there's

Sean:

an awful lot of editing to be done.

Sean:

And then when she did, her edits were just absolutely wonderful.

Sean:

As were the copyedits.

Sean:

So it was just yes, yes, yes to everything that she and Bosworth,

Sean:

who's the copyeditor suggested.

Sean:

So we have to see what this will be like, you know.

Sean:

Until I've really got to the end of the book.

Sean:

Which won't be for another two or three months and, and gone

Sean:

back and absolutely structured.

Sean:

I won't really know, and then it may well be needs more work sort of early

Sean:

next year with, with Eloisa, let's see.

Sean:

So I kind of won't, won't know.

Sean:

But my short stories are not historical, you know, they're

Sean:

generally dark contemporary.

Sean:

And, um, and I think the problem I had always, and this is definitely a

Sean:

lesson for aspiring novelists who may have started off with a short form.

Sean:

Because that, you know, is more accessible and more, although they're very different,

Sean:

they're utterly different forms.

Sean:

That's the key.

Sean:

And I think I probably was trying to write long, short stories,

Sean:

and that's why I kept failing.

Sean:

Because short stories, to me anyway, they work on what's withheld.

Sean:

So that when you finish reading a short story, it opens up in the mind.

Sean:

It expands the mind.

Sean:

Then you, you think what could have happened?

Sean:

Why did they say, why was there that lurk or why did they have argument?

Sean:

That's why the ending of a short, the opening and the ending

Sean:

is so crucial in short story.

Sean:

And I think I was trying to do that with novels in a long way.

Sean:

To withhold, so that the reader would have to really work to get the meaning

Sean:

of the novel, which, you know, some contemporary novels succeed in doing.

Sean:

And you know, Liz's first comment to me, Liz Jensen, when she was helping

Sean:

me was, you're terrified of writing a sentimental sentence, aren't you?

Sean:

And I kind of said, Oh yeah, I probably am.

Sean:

And she said, don't, you won't, you won't, you won't write sentimental sentences,

Sean:

but you've got to put the emotion.

Sean:

You know, the reader has to feel what every character's feeling.

Sean:

And that was such an important lesson.

Sean:

You don't really do that in a short story.

Sean:

You, you, you set up this situation that the reader can

Sean:

then interpret for themselves.

Sean:

With the novel, you have to create this complete world.

Sean:

Characters who you, you feel for and you understand their motivation.

Sean:

So that, that was my writing journey, really.

Tom:

And with the regular writing, obviously we touched on this a little

Tom:

earlier, but, have you been struck by any like really uninspired periods where you

Tom:

got a plot point that you're just stuck on, or you don't know how a character is

Tom:

going to deal with a certain situation.

Tom:

And how do you deal with those narrative challenges?

Sean:

Go for a run.

Sean:

Seriously, I think just, you know, go for a walk or walking

Sean:

and running are very useful.

Sean:

You can't really ask for help.

Sean:

You know, I love my writer friends.

Sean:

We talk about a lot of things, but you can't really ask anyone else how

Sean:

to solve a plot problem, I think.

Sean:

Your subconscious has to do that for you.

Sean:

I'd say move on, but that's another thing I've really learned.

Sean:

And I, I went on a course once and it was a piece of advice that was well

Sean:

intentioned, but I think very bad advice.

Sean:

But to me, it really appealed because as a short story writer.

Sean:

And the advice is write scenes, you know, write scenes.

Sean:

It doesn't matter where they are in the book because you can connect them

Sean:

up, you can connect them out later on.

Sean:

I thought, Oh, that's great.

Sean:

And so, you know, I literally have boxes of written scenes, in manually written

Sean:

manuscript, in books, printed off, that, you know, Uh, you can't write, I can't

Sean:

write novel and I think my advice to any novelist trying to sort of hone their

Sean:

skill or whatever is write forwards.

Sean:

Because there's something about your narrative energy, that if

Sean:

you write forwards all the time.

Sean:

And don't jump forward three chapters thinking, I'll come back to this.

Sean:

There's something, for me anyway, where the narrative energy is lost.

Sean:

So I think there's something about write forwards through your book.

Sean:

So if you are stuck, yeah, you'll work it out.

Sean:

Just trust, trust in time and trust your subconscious.

Sean:

Do something else, go for a walk.

Tom:

And just as someone who used to run, but knees have prevented it going further.

Tom:

Um, how long do you run for?

Tom:

Is it just like a half hour run?

Tom:

Do you run for hours?

Tom:

Do you have like a route that like a certain distance you'd like to cover?

Sean:

Yeah.

Sean:

I, um, so my leg is strapped up at the moment.

Tom:

Because of your ankle.

Tom:

Yes.

Sean:

But, but it was six months ago.

Sean:

So I'm back to running now, but, um, it definitely, uh, was frustrating for us.

Sean:

I'm not a fast runner at all, which probably helps the subconscious plotting.

Sean:

Cause if you really fast runner, you haven't got the oxygen in your brains

Sean:

to really, but I like to do about 10 K.

Sean:

So that's about an hour's running, sometimes more.

Sean:

And yeah, I do have now three or four very standard routes where I

Sean:

don't have to think about the route.

Sean:

There's this huge forest near us called Culbin Forest, which is a, wonderful,

Sean:

vast, you could run for days in there.

Sean:

And never be found.

Sean:

And that is a problem because at first I just didn't know the routes

Sean:

and you could get so terribly lost.

Sean:

There's no mobile phone signal but now I know the routes, so, uh, yeah,

Sean:

and I jog along pretty slowly and then without thinking about it at all, I find.

Sean:

Well, I mean, yeah, that's why that's what needs to..

Tom:

Yeah, I had this conversation with another author about alpha waves.

Tom:

And, I thought it was a common thing.

Tom:

And then I sort of mentioned it and if people look at me blankly

Tom:

as, as have you, um, it's you have your things that you focus on.

Tom:

And then the, the creative mind, a kind of this alpha wave pattern that if

Tom:

you're doing a repetitive motion that you don't have to consciously focus on.

Tom:

So it can be going for a walk, or sometimes having a shower, or,

Tom:

making yourself a meal that you've made yourself a thousand times.

Tom:

If it's something that you don't have to engage your brain, and as you say,

Tom:

you know the routes now, you kind of know where the dips and peaks are of

Tom:

the route, you can pace yourself for it.

Tom:

You're not doing it to improve a time, so you're just out there,

Tom:

the muscles are working, your brain goes, okay, well, we, we know this.

Tom:

So let's trigger the alpha waves and start problem solving.

Tom:

And it's actually a recognized thing in psychology where, you know, if

Tom:

you do a repetitive action, there's a lot of brain function that goes like,

Tom:

well, we don't need to like focus on every little twig on this route.

Tom:

We know the path, the legs are doing their thing.

Tom:

We know what we're doing.

Tom:

We know where the energy needs to be for the next hour.

Tom:

So there's that problem that the other problem that we need to work on.

Tom:

Whereas if you're so watching TV or surfing the internet, there's

Tom:

so much new information that you're receiving that it's just your brain

Tom:

can't get into that creative rut.

Sean:

Absolutely, yeah, it's really important.

Sean:

I mean, everyone's different, of course.

Sean:

but.

Sean:

So for me, I quite often do write with music in the background,

Sean:

but it's got to be Baroque.

Sean:

And I met, I'm lucky enough to meet someone who deals with neuroscience

Sean:

and is also a musician the other day.

Sean:

I love all these sort of chance meetings.

Sean:

And, um, he was explaining that, yeah, Bach in particular, but,

Sean:

but sort of other tenement and Corellians, it works on patterns.

Sean:

And so what happens is your brain, hears the pattern.

Sean:

Baroque music generally is a repeating pattern.

Sean:

Varied, I do enjoy listening to it, but you're actually not consciously listening.

Sean:

As soon as I put something more demanding on, uh, you know, it could be anything

Sean:

Bowie or Beethoven, you know, it's too demanding and I absolutely can't

Sean:

write with that in the background.

Sean:

So it sort of fits.

Sean:

So I used to teach civil servants about writing the ministers and

Sean:

parliament and, and also generating creative options in policymaking.

Sean:

And used to talk a lot about the importance of the subconscious

Sean:

mind and all sorts of devices.

Sean:

So that you weren't just always coming out with the same things, but

Sean:

you were being creative yourselves.

Sean:

And also the incredibly important, if you'd written some long, important thing

Sean:

for a minist er that you, temptation would send it off because it was a deadline.

Sean:

But if you possibly could put it away, come in the next morning, don't

Sean:

think about it at all overnight.

Sean:

And every time pretty much you'd read through it and you'd see something

Sean:

important you'd missed or some fact that, you know, and it was your

Sean:

subconscious mind thought about it.

Sean:

You hadn't thought about it overnight, ideally, but you could correct it and make

Sean:

it a lot better the following morning.

Tom:

Actually on that as well with your editing process, cause you

Tom:

mentioned earlier, you've got these boxes of things that you printed off.

Tom:

Do you find that you do need to see it on paper and parchment rather

Tom:

than on a screen to pick up things?

Sean:

Yeah, yeah.

Sean:

So, you know, the two things you absolutely have to do with any piece of

Sean:

writing before you sort of send it off is, you do have to see it printed out.

Sean:

Which can be quite challenging with a whole novel, it's not

Sean:

terribly environmentally great.

Sean:

But I think you, you always see things on the printed page that you

Sean:

cannot see on the screen and you have to read it out loud to yourself.

Sean:

Or read out loud to somebody else.

Sean:

It's one of the most useful tips for any, any writer, to read out loud.

Sean:

Reading out loud to yourself is almost as good as reading out loud to somebody else.

Sean:

At least then you don't have to subject somebody else to hours of, of

Sean:

reading, but yeah, just, and you just hear a repetition of words that you

Sean:

just don't see on the page and so on.

Sean:

So senses just sense things so differently.

Tom:

No, absolutely.

Tom:

I have known writers who it's such an important part of their

Tom:

process to read it out loud.

Tom:

And also just to maintain that consistence of voice.

Tom:

Uh, I think when you're writing something for months, each time

Tom:

you sit in the chair, there are different external factors.

Tom:

And you're you're trying to get through things but some days you may

Tom:

be angry, sometimes you may be tired, some days you're really energized,

Tom:

and that can affect the the tone of what you're writing in a way that

Tom:

you're not conscious of on the day.

Tom:

Because you're reading it back in the same environment, but when you put

Tom:

all these sections together It can, it can then become more apparent.

Sean:

Yeah.

Sean:

Yeah.

Sean:

I mean, and of course, that's the beauty of a read through and then a

Sean:

read through on paper and then a talk through before you do anything else.

Sean:

But once you sort of finish the work, because yes, you'll pick

Sean:

all those, all those things.

Sean:

Yeah.

Tom:

And once you're happy with it, once you've done your read through

Tom:

and your, your talk through, um, who is the first person to read it?

Sean:

Well, that's good.

Sean:

So I have a very good friend from, from one of my writing groups, uh,

Sean:

Nell Farrell, and she's amazing.

Sean:

So I quite, she'll quite often read things chapter by chapter

Sean:

and she's got an amazing eye.

Sean:

And that you know, really helps.

Sean:

And I totally trust her.

Sean:

I don't think she'd ever said anything to me that I hadn't agreed with.

Sean:

So she's often one of the first people, probably, yeah, my wife will read it.

Sean:

She's a good reader and my daughter hopefully will read it.

Sean:

So yeah, I mean, quite often we get family.

Sean:

And you know, they're not uncritical readers, but you definitely need

Sean:

somebody who is a critical reader.

Tom:

Yeah.

Sean:

Um, so I've got one or two other friends that will probably give it a read.

Sean:

Then, uh, David, my agent, will give it a read, but I think it'll go quite

Sean:

quickly to Eloisa um, my editor.

Sean:

So yeah, so not a huge number of readers.

Sean:

I think, you're showing to other people, you've got to trust them.

Sean:

Because there's no point in subjecting people to draft.

Tom:

No, I just think it's fantastic that you have got such a strong

Tom:

support network of people who have known you as a writer for years.

Tom:

And you know, like some 15, 16 years of writing group that

Tom:

you have these strong bonds.

Tom:

And not everyone has them, but certainly some people do.

Tom:

Do you feel that it's something that you would recommend that

Tom:

people actively join writing groups?

Sean:

Yeah, I'm sort of on the one level unequivocally, but on the

Sean:

other hand, equivocally, so I met an amazing writer, actually locally,

Sean:

I happened to meet her recently.

Sean:

I'd gone along to a writer group and, she's extraordinarily talented, I think.

Sean:

But how do you conjure up, you know, I was sort of saying if you can find some other

Sean:

writers, uh, that's going to be really, really helpful to people you trust.

Sean:

And then I was thinking, you know, how do you conjure those relationships up?

Sean:

Because you know, writing groups vary a lot and you, you need to find a

Sean:

group where the quality of writing is good enough that you, you sort

Sean:

of respect and help each other.

Sean:

Where people are capable of giving feedback because I've also been some

Sean:

mentioning some people on sort of undergraduate pre courses and things.

Sean:

And talking to them about their, their fellow writers.

Sean:

But even though I'm sure they get lots of good advice from their tutors about

Sean:

how to give feedback, you know, saying I love this, or commenting on the grammar

Sean:

or, you want people to say, you know, that character's really interesting, but

Sean:

would they work better if it was closer third person or could we hear from

Sean:

them in first person or this section, could it work better in present tense?

Sean:

So it's a mixture of technical and also people can honestly say, this character

Sean:

just doesn't feel credible to me.

Sean:

Have you thought about, I don't know, giving them a pet?

Sean:

Because that, you know, all those kinds of things.

Sean:

So you need that sort of quite specific advice from people who are

Sean:

not necessarily published writers, but are, you know, very experienced

Sean:

readers who have written themselves.

Sean:

So it's not necessarily easy to find those people.

Sean:

Well, and I mean, I suppose I have been lucky, but then I've been

Sean:

working at it for a long time.

Sean:

So it's all a mixture of luck and, and work.

Tom:

I mean, as you say, you've, it's taken a long time to get where

Tom:

you are, but now you've had great success with Zachary Cloudsey.

Tom:

Is there a lot of pressure do you feel on this second book?

Tom:

You said that, you know, there's still a few months left in the main writing of it.

Tom:

Mary is such a great and captivating character, is that helping drive you

Tom:

through or do you get periods of doubt and like imposter syndrome about your writing?

Sean:

Oh, who doesn't?

Sean:

I mean, totally.

Sean:

I'm sure every writer you have.

Sean:

You never feel like you're really a writer you know, I'm sure if I were lucky enough

Sean:

to win prizes and things in the next year or two, I'd still feel like an imposter.

Sean:

You sort of constantly looking for more, more kind of validation,

Sean:

I think, as a, as a writer.

Sean:

And that's not healthy and it's kind of greedy in a way, you know, why should you?

Sean:

I mean, the best validation is actually, I mean, so I, Just a day or two before

Sean:

Zachary's published and I was, I was going around bookshops signing copies and

Sean:

things that all felt very good, but you still feel completely like an imposter.

Sean:

And then I was in London and, um, there was a play on at the national

Sean:

and, you know, I was on my own because I was there to do book stuff.

Sean:

And I thought, I'll go and see this play.

Sean:

And I was looking for another book.

Sean:

Actually, they didn't have it in stock.

Sean:

And I went into the Foyles on the South Bank and there was my book.

Sean:

And of course, because I hadn't been expecting it, that was the best way

Sean:

of thinking, oh my God, I'm a writer.

Sean:

That's And the other thing that's lovely is when people do, um, see my website,

Sean:

which I'm not very good at keeping up to date, um, but people do occasionally send

Sean:

messages through that or on Instagram and say, I just read your book and I,

Sean:

they said it read like The bastard child of Charles Dickens and Wes Anderson.

Sean:

And I thought, yeah, that's great.

Sean:

I love that.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

I mean, I definitely got Dickensian vibes with the start of it, but it went

Tom:

in ways that I just couldn't possibly imagine and yeah, I really love it.

Tom:

And, I really enjoying, um, hearing about what's coming next.

Tom:

I'm going to wrap up with two final questions.

Tom:

Cause I know you've got places to be.

Tom:

You're a very busy man.

Tom:

Now, it's my belief that writers continue to grow and develop their writing

Tom:

with every story that they write.

Tom:

Was there something particular that you learned about your first novel that

Tom:

you're now applying to your second novel?

Sean:

Yes, lots.

Sean:

But I, you know, in the process of writing the first novel, it was I think it would

Sean:

give every character a beating heart.

Sean:

Think about the small characters and invest in them.

Sean:

Even if you write, write them with three brushstrokes.

Sean:

You mentioned Dickens.

Sean:

And again, you know, in a short story, you, you absolutely do not

Sean:

have to like your character story.

Sean:

And I know not everyone loves Charles Dickens and he had his flaws with

Sean:

over sentimentality and convoluted plotting, but the one thing you can

Sean:

absolutely say about Charles Dickens, every single character, the villains

Sean:

and the, uh, and the heroes and the heroins, he cherished every character.

Sean:

You can just tell.

Sean:

And I, I feel that too.

Sean:

And obviously with this novel, it is such a joy because Mary is so cherishable.

Sean:

And actually everyone she knew, you know, even Alexander Pope, who in some ways

Sean:

was not, you know, he's a pretty horrible man in some ways, but Horace Walpole, you

Sean:

know, Alexander Pope and Horace Walpole were vicious to her, but getting under

Sean:

their skin and knowing or trying to feel as a novelist, what would have motivated

Sean:

them and why they disapproved of it.

Sean:

In Pope's case to lend on her.

Sean:

Walpole, it's very easy because he feels that his father, you know,

Sean:

that, that Mary sort of forced his father to, to marry his mistress.

Sean:

So there's all that go, well, that history is amazing.

Sean:

So, but it's that sense of show that you love, you know,

Sean:

even very unlovable characters.

Sean:

That you as the author, if you can show that love for them somehow to

Sean:

the reader, it means the reader is going to love them too, I think.

Sean:

And one other thing.

Sean:

And sounds a bit pretentious because it's Milan Kundera said this thing,

Sean:

but I think it's really true.

Sean:

And I'm not a huge Milan Kundera fan, but he has this phrase, which

Sean:

was every serious writer is striving for that supra authorial voice.

Sean:

Any writer who's more intelligent than what they're writing should

Sean:

go into another line of work.

Sean:

And I think, and I came across that a few months ago and I thought, wow, yeah,

Sean:

because that's the thing, if I'm writing well, when I look back what I've written,

Sean:

I thought, Oh, I wonder who wrote that.

Tom:

Yeah.

Sean:

Uh, and I think writers who you feel them poking through onto

Sean:

the page and they're showing off, I think you pick up as a writer.

Sean:

So I think that's, that's something I learned.

Tom:

And throughout all your years of writing short stories and novels,

Tom:

was there one piece of advice that you still return to that

Tom:

just kind of resonates with you?

Tom:

That just gets you through the writing day?

Sean:

One word.

Sean:

Persist.

Sean:

You just got to persist because as a writer, you're going to have setback after

Sean:

setback, you're going to be rejected.

Sean:

Even now I'm, you know, there's things I think, well, why didn't they

Sean:

want me to come and speak to them?

Sean:

You've just got to absolutely withstand rejection.

Sean:

What you love, you've got to love writing.

Sean:

I mean, that's the most important thing.

Sean:

Don't go into it because either you think you're going to make

Sean:

money or going to become famous.

Sean:

You've got to love crafting every sentence, otherwise

Sean:

the rejection will crush you.

Tom:

Well, that's perfect.

Tom:

And uh, that's a great place for us to end.

Tom:

Sean Lusk, thank you so much for being my guest this week.

Sean:

Tom, I have loved talking to you.

Sean:

Thank you for a great conversation.

Sean:

Thank you.

Tom:

You're very welcome.

Tom:

And that was the lovely Sean Lusk.

Tom:

If you've not yet bought a copy of A Woman of Opinion, then please do.

Tom:

The audiobook is extremely good too, if you prefer to listen to stories.

Tom:

And if you want to keep up to date with Sean, I'm pleased to say his website has

Tom:

had a bit of a revamp since we spoke, and it has event listings, articles,

Tom:

as well as links to his social media.

Tom:

So you can check out all of that at SeanLusk.

Tom:

com.

Tom:

That's all for this episode.

Tom:

I'll be back with another amazing author soon, but until then, keep

Tom:

writing until the world ends.

All Episodes Previous Episode

Listen for free

Show artwork for The Real Writing Process

About the Podcast

The Real Writing Process
Interviewing writers about how they work
Interviews with award winning writers as well as emerging talent on how they manage their day to day process of writing for a living. Hear how the professionals approach structure, plot and imposter syndrome, as well as what they like to drink.
Support This Show

About your host

Profile picture for Tom Pepperdine

Tom Pepperdine