The Real Writing Process of Max Turner
Tom Pepperdine interviews Max Turner about his day to day writing process. Max discusses his approach to writing short stories and the benefits of professional editors. He also gives great advice on how to overcome self doubt whilst we get a bit drunk.
You can find a selection of Max's stories here: https://www.maxturneruk.com/short-stories
His Twitter: https://twitter.com/robot_tiger
Bodies Full of Burning anthology (Affiliate link): https://amzn.to.3okxg68
A Coup Of Owls: https://www.acoupofowls.com/
Reggie: https://www.reginajade.com/
Sarah Boyd, Editor: https://linktr.ee/sarahevb
And you can find more information on our upcoming guests on the following links:
https://twitter.com/Therealwriting1
https://www.instagram.com/realwritingpro
https://www.facebook.com/therealwritingprocesspodcast
Transcript
Hello and welcome to The Real Writing Process.
Tom:I'm your host, Tom Pepperdine.
Tom:And on this episode, my guest is Max Turner.
Tom:Max is a short story writer of speculative fiction.
Tom:His published stories have covered genres such as science fiction, fantasy furry
Tom:fiction, horror, and LGBTQ+ fiction.
Tom:This interview took place in early October, 2021.
Tom:And in a break from my usual introduction, I need to make some disclaimers.
Tom:First of all, Max and I are old friends.
Tom:We hadn't seen each other in a while and we began drinking a
Tom:little bit before I remembered to start recording this episode.
Tom:My original intention with this podcast was to make it sound
Tom:like an informal chat in a pub.
Tom:And Max, being the dutiful friend that he is, has certainly helped.
Tom:However, this has led me to edit out some of my swearing
Tom:and most of my random tangents.
Tom:This podcast isn't about me.
Tom:It's about my guests.
Tom:I may release the cuts as bonus content somewhere someday.
Tom:However, today's not that day.
Tom:Today, we are talking about Max's writing process.
Tom:Mostly.
Tom:Here's how it went.
Tom:Hello and welcome to The Real Writing Process.
Tom:This week, my guest is Max Turner.
Tom:Hi Max.
Max:Hello.
Tom:Hello.
Tom:My first question as always, what are we drinking?
Max:Today, we are drinking Bulmers Crushed Red Berries and Lime cider
Max:from a bottle, no glasses, no ice.
Tom:No, we're wearing glasses, we're not drinking from glasses.
Tom:And we've gone very cosmopolitan and we're drinking a cider from Hereford,
Tom:branching out from the Somerset region.
Max:It's a guilty pleasure in that, being from the west country, I
Max:wouldn't normally admit to drinking Bulmers, but it's a, it's a fruity
Max:little numbers we'll go with it.
Tom:And this isn't your regular drink whilst writing, I gather?
Max:No, I, I tend to drink a lot more kind of cocktail type things.
Tom:Whilst writing?
Max:Yes.
Max:Aperol spritz is, might tend to be my drink of choice.
Max:Or if it's Christmas, I'll go for a snowball.
Max:But yeah, I've mentioned to you before I have a liver condition now,
Max:so I'm not meant to be drinking.
Max:So this is a treat now.
Max:This is a, a Saturday night treat.
Tom:Excellent.
Tom:I am enjoying this treat.
Tom:It's not one that I drink regularly either, but again, I must admit
Tom:it is very sweet, very fruity.
Tom:Anyway, where were we?
Tom:Oh, yes, we were talking about writing.
Tom:And where you're sat now, it's looks like a conservatory.
Tom:It has a lot of windows and this is your writing space at home?.
Max:Yes, this is my office.
Max:So I yeah, I moved a few months ago and I volunteered to have
Max:the smallest room in the house if I could have the conservatory.
Max:So it's full of bookcases and plants and it's got a good energy.
Max:Bit bright sometimes, hence the canopy.
Max:And yeah it's a nice, comfortable space actually.
Max:And now obviously I've been I, I've been working from home as well
Max:since the start of the pandemic.
Max:I just, it's nice to have somewhere to do that without, hurt my back.
Max:Cause I'm old.
Tom:A dedicated workspace.
Tom:Yeah.
Tom:Is very good.
Tom:And are you a person that does their writing mainly during the day,
Tom:during the night, first thing in the morning, or just as and when?
Max:Never ever first thing in the morning that's insane that
Max:you should even think that nothing pre-coffee is happening in my life.
Max:But no, usually I'm usually more so in the evening, partly
Max:because I'm a single parent.
Max:So my kid is in bed, I can just carry on, for the most part.
Max:I do tend to be a bit more creative in the evening as well.
Max:I'm more easily distracted during the day.
Max:Like I'll just suddenly decide that, oh, I actually, I need to go and do some stuff
Max:on my website or do my taxes or something.
Max:Like, I'm just, I just start to procrastinate a little bit during the day.
Max:Unless I just start forcing myself to write and then get into the flow.
Max:But no, otherwise I could write any time, anywhere, as long as I'm not meant
to be doing something else:parenting or working in my, my actual day job.
Tom:Yeah.
Tom:And with your writing, because it's predominantly short stories.
Tom:What grabs you about an idea that you go, I think this is actually, rather than just
Tom:a fun, whimsical idea, this is actually something I want to develop into a story?
Tom:Do you start with a character, a scenario, some kind of world building elements?
Tom:What is it that generally grabs you first when you're developing a story?
Max:I would say, I think it does vary, but I would say for the most part, for
Max:me, it's probably the world building.
Max:And I think that comes from the fact that, the genres I write most in are speculative
Max:fiction, science fiction and horror.
Max:So a lot of it comes from the idea of right, what is this world?
Max:You know what, if it's, especially, if it's speculative fiction is,
Max:what is happening in this world?
Max:Why is this world the way it is?
Max:I'm a huge fan of world building.
Max:I'm one of these people that will literally spend four pages of
Max:exposition of like, this world and that, you know, in the first draft
Max:and then go back and edit it and be like, god, just shut the fuck up.
Max:What are you doing?
Max:Oh, am I allowed to swear on here?
Max:I just realized,
Tom:oh, abso-fucking-lutely.
Max:Again, it's just a habit being west country, you know?
Tom:I put a language warning on all of them, whether they're swearing or not.
Tom:I know my audience, it's a...
Max:Fair.
Max:But yeah, so I think for me, sometimes I will come up with the
Max:idea of a character and just be like, oh, okay, where can I put them?
Max:But for the most part, it is world-building.
Max:And especially when writing for specific anthology submission calls
Max:or I, I've also published quite a bit in like online journals and
Max:magazines and things like that.
Max:Quite often, the ones that attract me the most, are the ones that have
Max:a theme for that particular issue.
Max:And so, you know, I'll write to that theme and that then
Max:tends to be the world-building.
Max:If you're writing for a theme of something, it tends to be the
Max:world-building that you're creating first and that's suits me so well,
Max:because I absolutely love, I'm obsessed with world-building, absolutely.
Tom:Actually, I want to touch on that.
Tom:With writing submissions, then, it's very much, you'll see that there's
Tom:a call for stories and you'll write, you tend to write more to the brief
Tom:rather than looking at some unpublished stories and saying, do any of those fit?
Max:Yeah, it's a combination.
Max:I think the I do sometimes I'll look at a call and I'll just be like, oh, I have
Max:the perfect story for that, that I could just polish off and, blow the dust off
Max:and just bring it back out of mothballs.
Max:But with others, it will be a case where I'll see a submission call and I'll just
Max:think, oh my God, that sounds fantastic.
Max:And I'm one of these people that I am pretty what's the word, like optimistic
Max:in life, I'm a pretty happy person.
Max:So I tend to be quite philosophical about it and just, well if I don't get
Max:in I will have written a story that I would have really enjoyed writing and
Max:that will hopefully get placed somewhere else, if not in that publication.
Max:Because I've enjoyed the prompt that they've given, so it, that
Max:does tend to inspire me quite a bit.
Max:If I see a submission call with a prompt that really catches my eye, then yeah.
Max:I'll happily write away for it.
Tom:So do you find that you're more productive and more driven on a
Tom:self-created story, one that's on the whim of your own idea, or do you find you're
Tom:more creative and determined if there's a deadline and it's for a specific project?
Max:Oh my God.
Max:I'm just going to come back every time with it depends.
Max:I am really one of these kinds of like, I'm just one of these people
Max:that just goes with the flow.
Max:I think there is something to be said for like the creative freedom
Max:of just coming up with your own story and just, writing that.
Max:And I will do that sometimes because I'll have an idea that I want to explore,
Max:which sometimes may have come from a prompt you know, from a submission call.
Max:And I think, well, I don't really want to do that, but it's given me another
Max:idea for a different story that I'm going to write, which wouldn't fit that call.
Max:But I'll write it and I'll put it in my little back catalog, but I think
Max:I am more creative to a point when it's for a call because I'll of had to
Max:have really wanted to do the prompt.
Max:I'll have had to seen that and been like, yes, I have something
Max:in my head that will fit that.
Max:I have something that I want to do for that.
Max:And then other times, as you say with the deadline, then
Max:that is a motivator, obviously.
Max:But there are other times where, you know, like quite recently
Max:there's a sort of almost burnout and gone okay, do you know what?
Max:Although I am really enjoying writing their story, I'm just going to
Max:have to stop, and forget about that particular submission call and maybe
Max:come back to the story another day for a different call that it might fit.
Max:Because I just am going to burn out if I keep on.
Max:So I think, yeah, I think it, with creativity, it tends to be, there are
Max:many other factors going on, but yeah.
Tom:And with your world-building being your favorite part, or the
Tom:thing that draws you into the story.
Tom:As a speculative fiction writer, do you do much research or do you like to
Tom:just use your imagination and if you do research, do you have certain places
Tom:that you'd like to go to research things?
Tom:Like there's certain publications, for example.
Max:Yeah, I um, I love research.
Max:I have a BA and MA in archeology, so I am very much a research
Max:driven person, you know?
Max:So it does depend on the story and what the story calls for, but, especially
Max:if it's something that's not something that I'm hugely familiar with already,
Max:through anything else I've ever done.
Max:I will spend a bit of time researching and looking up usually yeah, things
Max:to do with world-building and things that I can adapt for my stories.
Max:For example, the minute, like the, I seem to have bookmarked a
Max:lot of websites about cryptids.
Max:So that's something that, you know, I've been revisiting quite a bit in a
Max:lot of stories I've written recently.
Max:But I think that, it's one of those kind of double-edged swords, because
Max:then I think if something needs too much research, it depends on
Max:what it is, but it can put me off.
Max:So for example, that's why I do not write like hard scifi, because
Max:I do not have the background, the science background, to pull that off.
Max:And I don't have, I don't have it in me to like, you know, make the dedication
Max:to the sort of research that would take.
Max:I do really appreciate that with authors of really hard scifi, but it
Max:is just like, being able to base that in the scientific fact of reality is
Max:not something that comes naturally to me because it's not something
Max:that I've ever studied a great deal.
Max:And I think that the research it would take would be beyond me.
Max:So I tend to just know my limits.
Max:If I start researching something and then go, oh, do you know what, actually,
Max:no, that's just not gonna work.
Max:That's not gonna work for me.
Tom:Also with the such an academic background in research, in archeology.
Tom:Do you find yourself very organized with your research?
Tom:Do you have lots of files and folders and notes everywhere, or is it just that
Tom:you just absorb it in your brain and that it just mashes itself into a story?
Max:I do have a lot of folders full of stuff.
Max:And I do have a lot of shelves full of books and a lot of notebooks.
Max:So I think it's it does also go into the mind and kind of swirl around for
Max:a bit and you let it percolate and it kind of then comes together and to, to
Max:make the story richer, but definitely I do end up just bookmarking things
Max:or saving things to documents and into loads of folders and everything.
Max:Just so that I've got the reference material to go back to.
Max:Yeah, I definitely find that helpful, but again, I think that
Max:I don't think it's necessary.
Max:I don't think it's always necessary for every writer to do that.
Max:But I think that if that is something that you enjoy doing as well,
Max:then it can be really good fun.
Max:So I get a lot of out of research and for stuff.
Max:Cause if I wouldn't, I wouldn't bother writing it I'm a
Max:bit of a hedonist that way.
Max:Okay.
Max:Now, what are your challenges at the beginning of writing,
Max:which bits don't you enjoy?
Max:I guess the two big things that we haven't mentioned are the actual plotting, but
Max:also characterization and character.
Max:You know, are any of those bits challenging or do you just love it all?
Max:I think actually the hardest thing for me is naming characters and this is
Max:like a little bit off, but actually I think that's the thing I struggle with,
Max:as I'll start writing and then I'll be like a page in like really going
Max:for it and then this other character comes in and I've now got to name them.
Max:And I will literally then sit in front of a name generator for two hours.
Max:I'm trying to find the perfect name for this character.
Max:And it just destroys all of my productivity.
Max:And again, that's, the problem with writing scifi and stuff like that, cause
Max:it's like I can't get them a normal name.
Max:I need to go and find like a really cool, Phil the Martian.
Max:Um, But yeah, I think that I don't tend to struggle with characterization.
Max:I hope.
Max:I hope I don't..
Max:I don't know, you'd have to ask my readers.
Max:I think I'm okay with that.
Max:But with the plotting and, and what have you, I think that I'm one of
Max:these really annoying people that is equal parts plotter, and pantser, you
Max:know, I'll, I'll sort of, some stuff I will just like plot out to the nth
Max:degree and other stuff I'm just flying by the seat of my pants and just, you
Max:know, and sometimes in the same story.
Max:It's a little bit like chaos, but it comes together in the end.
Tom:Yes.
Tom:People don't tend to associate outlines with short stories, but again, I
Tom:think if you are writing to a theme or a brief, you do need an outline.
Max:Yeah, absolutely.
Max:And actually, especially like, for example, um, with horrors, I've
Max:been writing a lot of horror lately.
Max:And that's something that it's not just about having the characters
Max:in the story and the, the plot and the world building it is also, it's
Max:got to have a specific beat to it.
Max:You know, you've got to have the plot points in the right places,
Max:you've got to have the tension.
Max:So it's all very well to have the idea and the great characters.
Max:But if you don't build the tension in the right way, then it's
Max:not, it's not a horror story.
Max:So it's something that, cause I never really thought of myself
Max:as a horror writer in the past.
Max:And I think that I get away with it a little bit by mixing it with
Max:speculative fiction or science fiction.
Max:And I think that really helps because then it doesn't have to be as scary in
Max:some ways, but by the same token, I'm trying to build up what I write in horror.
Max:I'm trying to find my own voice in it.
Max:And I mentioned to you before the uh, recently had a story, short story
Max:published in a anthology called Bodies Full Of Burning, which is a anthology
Max:of menopause themed horror stories, so the majority of the writers are female.
Max:There's some non binary writers and there's myself who, I'm a trans man.
Max:And my idea of horror is, taking the extreme of what it is to
Max:be a transgender person today.
Max:And so, you know, my story in that analogy is about somebody who is forcibly made
Max:to have their hysterectomy reversed by the government because the government
Max:has decided to reverse all transitions.
Max:And, as a parent, I'm always terrified that being transgender somebody one
Max:day is going to say right, well, we're going to not take your child away
Max:from you because you're transgender.
Max:Which feels like an extreme thing to say.
Max:But when you know, you live this existence, yeah.
Max:And you read the kind of stuff that people put on the internet and especially
Max:like on Twitter and places like that.
Max:And you read the anti-trans sentiment.
Max:And the fact that the current government in the UK is anti-trans, essentially,
Max:as individuals and as a body.
Max:It's terrifying that, will this one day happen?
Max:And so, you know, that then feeds into my stories because I'm looking
Max:at stories that are horrific from the point of view of a trans person.
Max:And the hope is that the readership wouldn't necessarily be trans, it would
Max:be anybody reading that and kind of go like, wow, that's fucking terrifying.
Max:I don't want that to happen to me.
Max:And it's no, neither do I.
Tom:Yeah, there is that heightened level of horror when it's plausible.
Tom:The horror isn't from some other dimensional being, but it's just
Tom:the darkest elements of humanity.
Max:Absolutely.
Tom:You think about there's definitely some horror aspects in 1984 and the most
Tom:horrifying things about it is how they feel they're doing it for the common good.
Tom:And it's just, humanity, you look across history and the horrible things that
Tom:have been done in the name of religion.
Tom:And again, good versus evil and it's unequivocally objectively evil.
Tom:Oh, but we're doing it with good intentions.
Tom:It's like, no you're just evil.
Tom:And yeah, and it is scary to think that's still a possibility that sort of like
Tom:horrific human on human violence is still a thing that we deal with today.
Tom:And you'd hope that empathy would win out, but it doesn't.
Tom:And yeah, I always have this thing that no one believes they're evil.
Tom:That sort of in an abstract way, there is no such thing as evil,
Tom:just different points of view.
Tom:Which is an unpleasant thing to say, but people will do evil things
Tom:when they feel they're justified.
Tom:It's, yeah, that, that is a very valid form of horror.
Max:It was just like destroy the mood, take another drink, but apologize to
Max:everybody for bringing the mood down.
Tom:Yeah.
Tom:So once you have in mind the story that you wish to write.
Tom:As a single parent and as a person with a day job, how do you discipline
Tom:yourself to get the words on the page?
Max:I have, I tried to write a thousand words a day.
Max:That is my goal.
Max:It doesn't always happen and I'll sometimes average it out and just be
Max:like well, I got to the end of this week and I didn't write a thousand in a day.
Max:So I'll just do more today to make up for other days.
Max:I think what helps is that I usually, cause I do write short stories, I
Max:tend to be working on several at once.
Max:And it's easier for me to maintain a a good workflow by having that number,
Max:because then if I start to grind to a halt on one, or I'm just not feeling
Max:it that night, I can switch to a different work in progress and carry
Max:on with that one instead, you know.
Max:So I might work on four and one evening.
Max:I think that really helps me because then I don't ever
Max:stop, I'm still moving forward.
Max:Whereas I think, that never used to be my process years and years ago.
Max:My process was, yeah, I'm just going to write this story until it's done and then
Max:move on to the next, but then you're eager to get to the next one, so you can lose a
Max:bit of love for the one you're working on.
Max:Cause you just want to move on.
Max:And so the second you hit anything.
Max:You know, you kind of like a little bit of a, well, I'm not really
Max:sure what to do in this next scene.
Max:I'm not really sure how I want it to play out, or I had wanted to do
Max:it this way, but now I don't know if that's actually going to fit quite
Max:as well as I planned then that's it.
Max:You're like game over, the productivity just is gone.
Max:So for me, I found that working on lots of little things at once
Max:just makes me more productive.
Max:As I said before, I tend to write more in the evenings.
Max:So it's just a case of right, what am I gonna look at today?
Max:I have two different lists on my computer of deadlines.
Max:And so I'll look at right, which ones are the ones that are due this month?
Max:Which ones are the calls that are coming out this month?
Max:Or which ones am I writing for my Patreon this month?
Max:And then I will just choose one of those to work on.
Max:And then just keep going.
Max:If I, like I said, if I wear out on one, I go to the next one and so on.
Max:So it, it works well for me.
Max:I know, not for everybody, but it works well for me.
Tom:One of the things that's curious about that system is does it help if
Tom:they're in a similar kind of genre?
Tom:So at the moment you're writing horror, but you also write scifi.
Tom:So does it help to have a couple of horrors on the go?
Tom:And it's just this one's not working, but because I'm in the horror vibe,
Tom:I'm going to try this one or is it a flip side where it's more like I've
Tom:had enough of horror, I need to work on something of a completely different genre?
Max:Yeah, I think is probably more a mixture of genres.
Max:I, um, I dunno, I don't, I can't remember the last time where I was actually
Max:writing a lot that we're all very similar.
Max:So even and because obviously Spec fic is so broad.
Max:So even when I was writing say, I might've had maybe four spec fics
Max:I was writing at the same time.
Max:So vastly different in the sort of world-building and what they were about
Max:that it does team tend to change it up.
Max:And I think, yeah, maybe that does actually help.
Max:Because I'm almost setting like a reset button in my brain of, okay,
Max:I've been working on this, but I've worn out, gonna move on to this other
Max:one that is so vastly different.
Max:That it's like the spark, reignites.
Max:I can't say that it wouldn't work writing lots of similar things, but I
Max:don't, I can't recall the last time I actually was in a position to do that.
Max:Cause they're even, cause they're just so different.
Max:The actual stories, even if they're similar genres.
Tom:I suppose that allow you the luxury of, sometimes you can just sit down
Tom:and go, what am I in the mood to write?
Tom:Or what, which one am I in the mood to focus on?
Max:Yeah.
Max:That is, I would say that's almost the biggest thing that dictates it.
Max:Sometimes it could be that I'm in the mood for something.
Max:So, like I might move from horror to horror or what have you, because
Max:that's what I'm in the mood for.
Max:And, I'm doing a lot of horror calls at the moment, but that's because I like
Max:the prompts that I've seen and I think, yeah, I could write something for that.
Max:That, that looks really interesting.
Max:I've got a story that I can tell for that.
Max:Yeah, I think that it then gets you in the head space for it.
Max:Yeah, I don't know.
Max:I think it's, I think it's definitely a, a mixed bag.
Tom:Yeah.
Tom:And I think that can also help when there's bits where you're struggling,
Tom:the sort of this uninspired bits you can maybe just start something new.
Tom:And just start working, planning things out.
Tom:But do you ever get to a point with your writing where you just
Tom:think you're a terrible writer that imposter syndrome suddenly
Tom:takes hold and go, what am I doing?
Tom:I don't understand language.
Tom:I don't know how letters get together.
Tom:And how'd you deal with that?
Tom:If that hits you?
Max:I have to say, I, I don't think that's hit me for years.
Max:And I think that writing fan fiction actually hammered that out of me.
Max:I might be working on a story where I'm part way through it.
Max:And especially if it's for a submission call, where I kind of go,
Max:do you know what this actually isn't working or it's not really coming
Max:together for this particular call.
Max:I think I'm going to put a pin in it or start over again and maybe see
Max:what I can salvage from that draft.
Max:So I would definitely say there are times where I'm writing a story where I go, oh
Max:my God, this is shit, what am I doing?
Max:But on the whole, I don't think I'm the, this is going to sound really
Max:conceited, because I don't think I'm the most amazing writer in the world.
Max:But I think the one thing that it taught me, as I say, writing fan fiction and
Max:seeing, fanfic writers get in their head a lot about this and will be
Max:tweeting constantly about, oh, the last thing I wrote was so bad and dah,
Max:and I think what it actually does is a massive disservice to your readers.
Max:And I hate that.
Max:I don't ever want to do that.
Max:I don't want to ever believe that my writing is bad and actually, you know,
Max:and especially say it out loud, because what I'm saying then is that all these
Max:people that have said to me, oh, I really enjoyed that one story you wrote.
Max:I'm saying actually you're wrong because it was shit and I'm terrible.
Max:Do you know what I mean?
Max:So whilst I understand that feeling and I have had it myself in the
Max:past many years ago, I think I sort of trained myself out of it.
Max:And I'm an optimistic person, I'm a fairly joyful person, thanks to the meds.
Max:But I do feel that if you don't enjoy writing while you're writing, if you
Max:don't love it, why are you doing it?
Max:And the readers can feel that love, and I feel like if you think
Max:you're shit at it, then the readers are going to sense that as well.
Max:Okay.
Max:And especially if you say out loud that you're shit at it, you're
Max:actually shitting on your readers and saying, you shouldn't be
Max:reading my stuff because it's shit.
Max:And somebody might be thinking actually I loved that story.
Max:That was the best thing I've read and I really connected with it.
Max:It really resonated with me.
Max:But now you, as the writer, are telling me that I'm an idiot, so I
Max:do get a little bit passionate about,
Tom:I want to say I 100% agree.
Tom:You do sound really conceited.
Tom:So...
Max:I just think, like I said, there's clearly individual stories that I write
Max:where I go, nah, this is terrible.
Max:What are you doing?
Max:And I'll scrap them or I'll redraft them or whatever.
Max:But I just think, on the opposite side of that as well, is that am I then being
Max:a dick to everyone that's published me.
Max:You know, if I'm saying, oh, I'm a bad writer.
Max:I'm saying everyone has published me is an idiot and I've
Max:managed to take them for a mug.
Max:Do you know what I mean?
Max:So it is just whilst I completely understand where that comes from, and I
Max:really feel for people that actually do feel that because I don't think there's
Max:a choice in feeling that, and I don't think that it's something you know,
Max:you can say, you know, snap out of it.
Max:It is a state of mind you get in and it's an easy state of mind to get in.
Max:And I think that, sometimes there can be other issues that need
Max:to be dealt with alongside it.
Max:In, in terms of self-esteem and various other things.
Max:But I think that for me personally, I went through that years ago with fanfiction
Max:and came out the other side, primarily because I realized that if I was starting
Max:to say that, oh no, my stuff is shit.
Max:And yet on writing, for example, a lot of stories with transgender characters and
Max:having a lot of readers contact me and say to me how much that resonates with
Max:them and how much they got out of it.
Max:I cannot say them well, a bad writer.
Max:Because even if that was like the worst written shit ever, something in
Max:it connected with them, and I don't want to take that away from them.
Tom:Yeah.
Max:That's my view on it.
Tom:Absolutely, and that leads me on.
Tom:Yeah.
Tom:I'm glad you said that in the way that you did, because I really want
Tom:to talk about your fan fiction because when we first met, it was something
Tom:that you would really just developing.
Tom:So it was after your novel, then you were getting into short stories
Tom:and you were getting into fanfic.
Tom:And getting the success and getting this recognition.
Tom:And I'm really interested in you telling the listeners, how that started, cause
Tom:a lot of people may write fan fiction and just keep it for themselves,
Tom:but you went very public with it.
Tom:And how did that start and how did that evolve?
Max:I had written fanfiction fiction many years ago before I realized that's what
Max:it was, but also, I mean, I was, I was writing stories back in the day when I was
Max:much younger when I was a teenager, I'd be, writing stories for myself and I would
Max:see on the back of various different Star Trek publications where they would say,
Max:don't forget to send your stories into us.
Max:This was back in the day where they used to, actually both for scripts for
Max:the shows and for the novels they would put out calls and just be like, we were
Max:essentially just want your versions, which is essentially fan fiction.
Max:So I had always grown up with that kind of idea and not even realized that it
Max:was what we would call fan fiction.
Max:And then I didn't write for many years.
Max:I stopped writing after my novel and it was because of I lost the balance and I
Max:basically spent so much time promoting and, trying to get people interested in,
Tom:Cause you self published your novel.
Max:I did.
Max:And so obviously there is that element that comes with it.
Max:But then I, you know, I got to the point where I was then also
Max:like, okay, do you know what?
Max:Everyone's saying it's really good.
Max:I should try and get an agent.
Max:I should try and get a deal.
Max:And then the amount of time that I spent trying to do that
Max:and I'm not a salesperson.
Max:I don't, I'm not interested in doing this.
Max:Do you know what I mean?
Max:I wasn't getting any joy out of it.
Max:And so then I ended up 90% of my writing time is actually spent
Max:promoting and 10% is writing, but I'm too tired to really do anything.
Max:So I stopped enjoying writing and so I stopped writing.
Max:And we met around the time when I'd actually just started writing again.
Max:And the reason I started writing again was because I got into fanfiction
Max:properly, you know, I'd left behind like the sort of star Trek
Max:stuff that I'd done many years ago.
Max:And I basically had reached a point in my life where I dunno, I think I
Max:was very creatively needing an outlet.
Max:I was a performer for many years and a show producer of burlesque.
Max:And so I had a creative outlet with that and it still wasn't everything
Max:I needed because I've always written, I've written since I was
Max:old enough to know how to write.
Max:I've written stories.
Max:I used to buy little notebooks and write a story, the exact length
Max:of that notebook, because that's how I thought books were made.
Max:You're just given a set number of pages and you have to fit the story in, so
Max:they always have very speedy endings.
Max:And I think I just fell into fandom.
Max:And specifically it was uh, the show Hannibal and shout out to the
Max:Fannibals who are really just some of the most generous and creative
Max:people that I've ever met in my life.
Max:And I I was just really inspired by it.
Max:And then I started reading fan fiction, which again, like it wasn't
Max:something I had done for years and I hadn't really thought about it.
Max:And I was just blown away by the quality, the passion, and I
Max:just, I was like just inspired by the other writers in the fandom.
Max:So I started writing fan fiction again.
Max:And that was the end of 2015, I think.
Max:And so then I just prolifically write in that.
Max:And I still do.
Max:I actually, I have a Patreon that is just for people to read my stories
Max:in advance, my fan fiction stories in advance, and I publish a new story or
Max:chapter weekly, and it's something that I still do alongside my everyday writing
Max:because I love it and I love the community there and it gives me something I never
Max:got out of the writing community that I tried to join when I wrote my novel.
Max:And I think it was just cause I didn't find the right people for me.
Max:I didn't find, as you said earlier, my tribe and with fanfiction I have,
Max:and I'm very good friends with several other fanfic writers who publish my
Max:friend, Reggie and I have been in some of the same publications and
Max:that's been a fantastic experience.
Max:So it's just one of those things that kind of, I think I know people talk
Max:about, oh, how fan fiction can hone your skills and do these different things.
Max:But I think that there is also the community aspect of it.
Max:And what inspired me to start trying to get back into sort of original
Max:publishing again in many respects was when I started transitioning
Max:and I would write my feelings.
Max:Invariably into fan fiction.
Max:And so I wrote a lot of fanfiction about transgender, about characters that I
Max:would switch out to be transgender.
Max:Obviously not transgender in canon, so I would write, okay well, what
Max:would happen to this character if they were actually transgender?
Max:And I would write those stories and the response that I got from readers
Max:in the fandom was so overwhelming, and resonated with them so much that I was
Max:just like, okay why are we reading?
Max:Why do we have to get the fan fiction for this?
Max:Why can't we have this in the mainstream?
Max:And so that is why, most of my stories, whether they're horror,
Max:spec fic, scifi, they always still also have a queer element.
Max:Because I just need that to be out there.
Max:I need to, put that queer, bent on it as it were.
Tom:It's the power of representation and it should never
Tom:be in a sort of underestimated.
Tom:Having someone that is a mirror image, someone that, this is
Tom:a person like me in fiction.
Tom:And it's very strong in the trans community because the
Tom:mainstream is not there yet.
Max:Especially for transmasculine characters, you know, the vast majority
Max:of trans characters we do see in the mainstream are trans feminine,
Max:which, is also a double-edged sword because half of the time they're
Max:not portrayed in a very good way.
Max:When we do see representations and again, I'm going to plug
Max:Disclosure, if you haven't seen it.
Max:It's a Netflix documentary that I really recommend, which is
Max:specifically about the representation of trans people in television and
Max:film, but, goes for all kinds of creativity, creative fiction, really.
Max:But yeah, I think, and even just and going to sort of like racial
Max:representations as well, I just recently watched the Midnight Mass.
Max:I don't know if you've,
Tom:It's on my to-watch list.
Tom:I haven't started watching it yet, but Mike Flanagan,
Tom:his stuff's just incredible.
Max:Yeah.
Max:It's really fantastic.
Max:And there's actually the actor in midnight mass, Rahul Kohli, who plays
Max:the Muslim character, he was putting on Twitter the other day about some
Max:people were sort of like thirst tweeting, like, oh, he's hot and duh duh duh.
Max:And a couple of people called it out and were like, oh, that's
Max:objectifying and he replied to it and he's like, actually, I'm fine with it.
Max:In fact, I encourage it because people don't sexualize brown men in this way.
Max:And why not?
Max:Why aren't we being.
Max:So it is, it's that idea of representation being more than just them being there
Max:and representing whether it be a race or religion or gender or sexuality.
Tom:Yeah.
Max:Yeah.
Tom:And it's not just having it as tokenism, but actually
Tom:having it as a desirable person.
Max:Yeah, exactly.
Tom:It will get there because you look back 30, 40 years, you know, and
Tom:how homosexuality was a perversion that wasn't legally allowed to
Tom:be taught in schools in the UK.
Tom:It was illegal to promote homosexuality in this country when we were children.
Tom:And now we have Knights of the Realm who are openly gay and it's just so
Tom:the establishment can and will change.
Tom:Transphobia in the current age is something that is it's clearly negative.
Tom:And those who excuse it or are proud of it are clearly in the wrong as portrayed
Tom:in the press, they're not people who are lauded as champions of virtue.
Tom:But also we have to remember that trans people aren't portrayed as home life
Tom:in the mainstream conversation, but, clearly, the important thing that
Tom:will help the argument is portrayals in art and that's what's lacking.
Tom:And portrayals in arts at the moment can be highly problematic.
Max:I think as well, that's why there's a lot of conversations that come back to in
Max:the creative community about own voices.
Tom:Yeah.
Max:I think, I think there is a line with it because I have seen like a lot of
Max:arguments for and against, and I think it, in some circles it's fallen out of favor.
Max:And I think that it depends on the story you're trying to tell.
Max:Because I don't think that you have to be transgender to write a
Max:transgender character, but I do think you have to have had transgender
Max:experience to write a story about somebody's transgender experience.
Max:There's nothing wrong with having a character in your book or a story
Max:that is different to you, for whatever reason, whether it is religion or
Max:race or gender or sexuality, as long as you're not speaking for them.
Max:In the sense that, you're giving them a voice that you actually
Max:don't have any basis for.
Max:I think it's that difference between having a character who or for
Max:example, you know, I've noticed like a lot of actors have been talking
Max:about recently, it's come up now and again in the last year or so.
Max:About whether straight people should play gay characters and I've seen a
Max:lot of actors have drawn the line, the definition there of, I'll play a
Max:character if they happen to be gay, but I'm not going to play a character
Max:who the story is about them being gay.
Max:Because the distinction there being, there's a difference between playing
Max:a character who was just your everyday person, but happens to be gay.
Max:And however, that's portrayed in the fiction that it's in.
Max:And actually playing a character who is going through the
Max:experience of their sexuality.
Max:The journey of their sexuality when that's not something you have
Max:any knowledge or background on.
Max:We wouldn't, again, wouldn't ever expect a white actor to
Max:play someone's black experience.
Max:Or not these days.
Max:Um, hopefully.
Max:It comes down to the same sort of lines as that, but then you still
Max:have actors out there who apparently can play anything, including trees.
Max:So there we are.
Max:You never know.
Tom:Yeah.
Max:There's more nuance to it, but I think the important thing is to
Max:not step over other people's voices.
Max:So if you've got a, I saw somebody put it really well the other day on Twitter.
Max:I can't remember who it was, but basically saying along the lines of think
Max:about what you're writing and whether it's your story to tell, you know?
Max:And I think that's what it comes down to for me, is if you want to go
Max:write a transgender character, great.
Max:If you want to, you know, oh, I want some representation.
Max:Okay, great.
Max:Why are you writing that?
Max:Are you doing that as a token or are you doing that in a meaningful way for a
Max:start, but also, as I say, you know, what what aspects are you actually writing?
Max:And if you're trying to write a person's transgender experience, are
Max:you the best person to be writing that?
Max:Not just from a qualification point of view, but are you taking away a spot from
Max:a transgender writer who would be writing my experience from an authentic place?
Max:And I think it comes back to the having, when you say that you're inclusive as
Max:a publisher, really making that real.
Max:Because it's very easy to say that you're inclusive as a publisher and
Max:take all the submissions you can get.
Max:But then still only publish cis het white men.
Tom:Yeah.
Max:Which happens a lot.
Max:And this is where horror as a genre for us, especially I would say also
Max:science fictionand spec fic, to a degree, but certainly horror as a genre
Max:and especially within film has really you know, push boundaries on that.
Max:It always brings me back to the casting of Alien where, you know, that was cast
Max:pretty much blind, all those characters were written with just their surnames.
Max:None of them were written with, we are looking for a male or female actor.
Max:So they just cast it based on the actors, and so then you end up with
Max:Ripley, who's one of the most iconic female characters that we've ever known.
Max:And that was the late seventies, so it's doable.
Max:We can do this it's we should be further along than we are when you
Max:bet when you look at things like that.
Tom:Yeah, can we hurry up please?
Max:Yeah.
Max:Can we get on with it?
Max:Though, I just saw the, who sent somebody, sent me the other day, the new cast.
Max:It would have been yesterday, the casting news about the Hellraiser remake.
Max:Is it a remake?
Max:Or are they actually, is it going to be another one?
Max:Yeah, I'm not sure.
Max:But it's Jamie Clayton, who was in Sens8.
Max:She's a transgender actress and she's going to be playing pinhead.
Max:Yeah.
Max:So I was like, so I was actually really happy to scroll through on that because
Max:I was like expecting the inevitable dude bros of, you've ruined my childhood.
Max:The usual crying into their teacups.
Tom:She was fantastic in Sens8 and I haven't seen her in anything else.
Max:Absolutely phenomenal.
Max:In fact, again she was one of the people interviewed in Disclosure.
Max:So I do recommend that documentary, but yeah, I'm really interested to
Max:see what sort of take they have on it.
Max:But I did see like almost all the comments that I saw on Twitter were so positive.
Max:They were like, yeah, this is fantastic.
Max:She's great.
Max:And ripping the piss a little bit out of the people that do have a problem with it.
Max:And uh, yeah, which was nice.
Max:That's comforting.
Max:That's nice.
Max:It's nice when you get outweighed by the positive reception of the
Max:casting of a transgender person, cause it doesn't always happen.
Tom:Yes.
Tom:Okay.
Tom:So getting back to your writing.
Tom:So do you actually have your own beta readers for your short stories
Tom:or because of fandom, you know, has that just given you the confidence
Tom:in your voice to the point it is now?
Tom:Or do you still have people that you'd like feedback from before it
Tom:goes off to an editor or submission?
Max:It varies.
Max:I think there are some, where I write them and I think, I do a couple of passes
Max:on it and I think, yeah, that's okay.
Max:That's good to go.
Max:And I've not had any difficulties with that yet.
Max:There are others where I'm not sure this is quite come together as I wanted it to.
Max:And so I'm might get one of my friends to look at it, who's also a writer.
Max:But if it's something where I really just think, I think it's more a case
Max:of this, there've been a couple of stories that I've really thought
Max:were really good, like that I feel like I've got something with this.
Max:They're saying something and there's something to them that's really good.
Max:And I really want to get them out there.
Max:But they've been rejected like two or three times from different places.
Max:So then I'm like, okay, then I call my friend, Sarah, who's a professional editor
Max:and then I pay her some money and she she has a look at it so yeah, I do that.
Max:But a lot of the ones a lot of places that I've been accepted
Max:to, they have their own processes, they have their own editing team.
Max:So what they'll do is, obviously they want it to come over as polished as you
Max:can get it, but then a lot of them aren't that fussed because they'll have their
Max:own editorial voice that they'll want to, they want it to come across a certain way.
Max:Then I get the red pen version back.
Max:I look at it sometimes and I think, oh my God, there was
Max:so much shit wrong with this.
Max:But a lot of it is just down to, I can see why they want it in a certain way.
Max:And I think actually, it's something that's made me stronger as a writer.
Max:The heavier handed an editor is with me, the more I learn about writing.
Max:So I don't have any formal training in writing.
Max:I took one and a half modules of a creative writing course.
Max:Many years ago between my BA and my masters.
Max:And the second module was poetry so I left.
Max:Which is no disrespect to any poets, but I just, I don't get it.
Max:It's never going to be a thing that I get.
Max:I was just paying too much money to try to do poetry for six weeks, so I left.
Max:I did okay in school with English language, I think it was the only
Max:subject I got an A in, but I learned a lot more when I went to university
Max:and I remember my very first essay that I handed in came back with all
Max:the red pen over it, and I got quite a high grade and my professor was just
Max:like, I want to see you in my office.
Max:So I went and I had this meeting with the professor who was just like,
Max:I've given you this grade because what you've written is spot on.
Max:It's great.
Max:It really gets to the meat of it.
Max:But your grammar is atrocious.
Max:And he literally gave me this back with all the red pen in the world.
Max:And that was the day I learned the difference between a colon and a
Max:semi-colon, from my archeology professor.
Max:It's, I think, writing and learning these things, I think there's
Max:always more to learn and you should always be open to learning.
Max:So every time anything comes back to me from an editor, whether it
Max:be my own editor or an editor from a publication that I'm going to
Max:be in, I take it very seriously.
Max:And there are some bits it's easy to get butt hurt.
Max:You can look at the first pass and go, oh shit, they find so much wrong
Max:with this, but then you go back to it.
Max:You're like, oh, but no, it's fair.
Max:I need to be better.
Tom:So you've had a fairly good experience with editors, but I
Tom:feel that it's also down to your approach of they're there to help.
Max:Yes.
Max:Yeah, I think so.
Max:Cause like I, I have heard horror stories in the past about editors
Max:and having been on the other side of it quite a lot this year.
Max:And having, the red pen drafts come back.
Max:And I can see how easy it would be for people who have a certain mindset or
Max:maybe are a little bit more fragile, to look at that and really take it to
Max:heart and really, not be okay with it.
Max:And almost maybe even be offended on some level by it.
Max:But I think that you have to just really look at it as a learning
Max:experience, as they're just trying to help get the best out of you.
Max:And I can definitely say that, for example, like the manuscript that I've
Max:been editing recently, which is for a novella, that's going to be coming out
Max:in December, very heavy handed editor.
Max:But she leaves detailed notes as to why she's edited certain
Max:things in certain ways.
Max:And it's just all learning.
Max:That's why I'm like, I get you.
Max:Some of it is just her personal preference as an editor, but she's the editor for
Max:that publication, so that's up to her, I'm not precious about it, and I think there's
Max:only been a few times where I pushed back and say, actually for me that bit
Max:is integral, so I've not, I really need to understand why you want to change it.
Max:And I'm not happy to, for example, I think I've only had that really
Max:a couple of times where I've gone, no, I don't agree with that change
Max:because that bit means this.
Max:And then it's just a case of oh okay.
Max:You need to make that clearer in the text then.
Max:It's a partnership, you're both trying to get the best end product essentially.
Max:I guess if on a personality level you don't work out, then
Max:that's going to be difficult.
Max:But so far, luckily I've not come across that myself.
Tom:And for you, what makes a good editor?
Tom:Which ones do you respond most strongly with?
Tom:Cause you said the words heavy handed there, do you like someone
Tom:who, you know, ask questions of you then gives examples of how they
Tom:think it should be better or yeah.
Tom:Yeah.
Tom:What is a good editor for you?
Max:Yeah, I actually, I don't mind how they edit it.
Max:What I need is the communication.
Max:What I need is a good comment about why they think that should be changed.
Max:And then most of the time I do agree with them, so I think that's what it
Max:comes down to with probably anything in life is it's about communication.
Tom:Yeah.
Tom:And just the last few questions and thank you so much for
Tom:this evening, it's been great.
Max:It's been lovely catching up because we've been trying
Max:to meet up for like ever.
Tom:But yeah.
Tom:But it's, so I just want to say, because I had this belief that
Tom:writers grow and develop their writing with every story that they write.
Tom:And can you think of anything of something that you've recently finished or published
Tom:that you learned that you're now applying to the things you're currently writing?
Max:Yeah.
Max:I think that, again, for me, that has come from editors because I
Max:just learn from other people, it's hard to learn from yourself unless
Max:you're making a mistake, you know?
Max:Um, and that was, I would say there was a the last couple of
Max:stories that that I've had edited.
Max:Again, just thinking about how I structure sentences sometimes.
Max:And so it's quite a practical lesson, but it is something where it, it's
Max:come back on a couple of edits from two different people that I've gone,
Max:that I clearly need to think more about how I'm structuring certain sentences.
Max:And so that stuck with me because it has made me think, when I do
Max:my own read through oh, once I finished the first draft or I'll do
Max:a couple of passes on it after that.
Max:And, that's where I'm now keeping that in mind and going through
Max:and thinking to myself, does that sentence need to be reworded?
Max:Does that mean to come across slightly differently?
Max:And yeah, and I think that makes me a stronger writer in that sense.
Max:And I think that, again, it's all about being open to learning and it's
Max:something that I take from everything that's been edited or even just feedback.
Max:Like I said, my friend, Reggie sometimes reads my stuff if I'm not
Max:completely sure that it's working out, but it's not something I want
Max:to get fully edited at this stage.
Max:She'll read through it and give some sort of hints and tips that I haven't
Max:thought of, we're just very different writers, but we write similar um, stories.
Max:So it's nice.
Max:Cause then she's looking at it with a fresh pair of eyes and
Max:sometimes that's what you need is just somebody else to suggest, oh,
Max:what about if you did it this way?
Max:So yeah, I completely agree with you.
Max:I think that you learn constantly in that respect.
Max:And I think it is just putting that in.
Max:It does make you a stronger writer if you're open to learning those things,
Max:because again, it is easy for you to think, oh, that editor was really
Max:heavy handed and I'll just suck it up and say, yes, this is all fine,
Max:but actually you're resisting it.
Max:And you're not learning anything from it for the next time.
Tom:And of all the things that you've learnt through your writing career, is
Tom:there one sort of piece of advice you've been given or that you've read or that,
Tom:an editor told you that really resonated to the point that you still think of it
Tom:when you write now, is there one piece of advice that you consciously are aware
Tom:of that you still apply to your writing?
Max:Yeah.
Max:I think like it's not so much a quote or anything like that, but it's
Max:just something, a general feeling.
Max:I guess that came again from my background in fan fiction, that is to enjoy it.
Max:Because it's very easy.
Max:It's it's sometimes difficult for people that aren't in fandoms or are in fandoms,
Max:but not on the creative side to realize the culture that surrounds fanfiction.
Max:How it functions.
Max:One of the things is that writers are very prone to putting a lot of
Max:pressure on themselves to produce.
Max:And they're not getting any reward for it, necessarily.
Max:Other than people's comments and likes, and so it can be difficult because
Max:it, you can get into this mindset of, oh, but I've got to keep, they need
Max:that, they want the next chapter.
Max:Especially if you're getting a lot of positive comments or even if you're
Max:getting a lot of comments that are saying, when are you going to update this
Max:next, when are you going to update next?
Max:Some fanfic writers get really shitty comments to be honest, that aren't
Max:deserved, and I think that there's a breaking point that some of them get to
Max:where they're not enjoying it anymore.
Max:And that's when I think you're in danger of really burning out,
Max:but also really hurting yourself.
Max:In terms of you're going to lose this creative outlet you have, that
Max:means a lot to you and is clearly a passion because you're doing it unpaid.
Max:And if you've stopped enjoying it, then you get to that point where it's
Max:no longer going to be that in your life.
Max:And then that's a massive loss, that's a massive loss of, it's
Max:not just a hobby, it's something that they are passionate about.
Max:They have built an identity in the fandom around, they have made friends through,
Max:so it is part of a a culture in a way.
Max:So I think that's always been really important to me is
Max:make sure you're enjoying it.
Max:And if you stop enjoying it, if you even think that I'm
Max:starting to not enjoy this now.
Max:Look at it.
Max:Why aren't you, is it this particular story or is it something bigger?
Max:Is it something you can deal with?
Max:Do you need to step back for a bit and have some time off, do
Max:you need to avoid some burnout?
Max:Do you need to reprioritize where writing is in your life?
Max:Just so that you don't have the amount of time for it anymore, but
Max:you don't want to give it up and now you're burning yourself out.
Max:Okay.
Max:How can I juggle everything around to make this work in the future?
Max:So I think that for me, that's what it's always been is, if you're not enjoying it,
Max:you need to look at why are you doing it.
Max:And if you're not enjoying it, and you should be, obviously.
Max:I don't understand why anyone would write if they don't enjoy it.
Max:I think it is a case of addressing that issue before it then takes
Max:something precious from your life.
Max:Cause it's happened to me, I didn't write for years.
Max:And that wasn't necessarily down to the writing itself.
Max:That was everything else that goes around with, especially as you say, being
Max:self-published, being your own promoter and also just the rigmarole of trying to
Max:find an agent and trying to do all that kind of stuff, and then realizing well
Max:actually, do I even really need one?
Max:I can just start submitting to calls.
Max:I don't need an agent for that.
Max:So I think it is about having that balance of making sure you
Max:still enjoy it before you lose it.
Max:Before it's, it's gone from your life and you have that massive creative
Max:hole, which for some people like myself could be really detrimental
Max:to their health, but that was it.
Tom:That's a very poignant end to the interview.
Tom:But thank you so much, Max.
Tom:It's been great.
Tom:I will leave where people can find you in the show notes and thank you
Tom:very much for being on the show.
Max:It's been a pleasure.
Tom:And that was The Real Writing Process of Max Turner.
Tom:If you'd like to learn more about Max, you can find all of his details
Tom:on his website, MaxTurnerUK.com.
Tom:You can also find Max on Twitter under the handle @robot_tiger.
Tom:The anthology we discussed on the show, Bodies Full Of Burning, that includes
Tom:Max's horror story is out now and a link is provided in the show notes.
Tom:I'd also like to let you know that Max is part of the
Tom:publication team for the bi-monthly anthology series, A Coup Of Owls.
Tom:And they will be open for short stories submissions throughout December.
Tom:So I'll leave a link in the show notes for that as well.
Tom:Now, Max also asked that I give a couple of shout outs to his friend, Reggie.
Tom:And his editor, Sarah Boyd.
Tom:So their details are also in the show notes.
Tom:And for some reason, Max also sent me a Wiki link about the documentary
Tom:Disclosure, that's on Netflix.
Tom:But frankly, if you'd rather read a Wiki article about a documentary
Tom:instead of watch a documentary, I doubt you've listened this far.
Tom:Uh, for everyone else, look it up on Netflix.
Tom:I have faith in you that you'll find it.
Tom:Anyway.
Tom:Until next time, everyone.
Tom:Or.
