The Real Writing Process of G. V. Anderson
On this episode, Tom interviews World Fantasy Award winner and British Fantasy Award winner G. V. Anderson on making the leap from successful short story writer to debut novelist.
They discuss the difference made by having a new dedicated writing space, what resource has really helped her research, and how she knew her latest story had to be a novel.
You can find all of Gemma's info here: https://gvanderson.com/
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Transcript
Hello, and welcome to The Real Writing Process.
Tom:I'm your host, Tom Pepperdine.
Tom:And this episode, my guest is the World Fantasy Award winner and
Tom:British Fantasy Award winner G.
Tom:V.
Tom:Anderson.
Tom:Now G.
Tom:V.
Tom:or Gemma is one those annoying high achievers that won awards with
Tom:her first short story, which she sold to Strange Horizons magazine.
Tom:Okay.
Tom:It was her first short story sold.
Tom:But it was like her fourth short story she'd ever fully written.
Tom:You know, Annoying.
Tom:However, she's also really good.
Tom:And all kinds of lovely when you meet her.
Tom:So forgiven.
Tom:Well, I, I forgave her because I'm a bigger person than most of you.
Tom:Also, I don't write anything, so I don't have any skin in the game.
Tom:But beyond that, I just liked reading her stuff.
Tom:And when you go on her website, there's a whole list of the publications she's
Tom:had her short stories published in.
Tom:And when you read them you get a real sense of her talent.
Tom:Because it's titles like the best horror of the year, the year's
Tom:best fantasy and horror, the year's best dark fantasy and horror.
Tom:Nebula Awards showcase.
Tom:Best of British science fiction.
Tom:And little websites like tor.com.
Tom:She ain't shit, basically.
Tom:However, I appreciate short story writers aren't really household names.
Tom:So although you may not have heard of G.
Tom:V.
Tom:Anderson, I promise you she's well worth your time.
Tom:And this is an interview you really want to listen to.
Tom:Now, Gemma was going to be our first guest this season.
Tom:But genuinely, I got too excited chatting to her on Zoom, I
Tom:completely forgot to record it.
Tom:Whole interview gone, I was mortified.
Tom:And it was late in the evening.
Tom:We did it like 8 till 10.
Tom:And so it was just too late to do anything about it.
Tom:However, Gemma is lovely, as I said, and amazingly generous with her time
Tom:and agreed to be re-interviewed.
Tom:So without too much groveling, I managed to get her back and we recorded
Tom:what you're about to listen to.
Tom:I still can't believe she did that.
Tom:I'm really thankful.
Tom:Gemma, thank you.
Tom:But I just need to establish this is our second run through.
Tom:Also, extra credit to Gemma to not referencing that throughout
Tom:the entire interview, that she'd answered these questions before.
Tom:And the only reason I'm telling you is one, it's, it's funny.
Tom:You got appreciate it.
Tom:And two, I sound really well researched on this interview.
Tom:And it's bullshit.
Tom:She just told me like weeks earlier.
Tom:So it's just, you know, I'm not a journalist, I just got told.
Tom:And then I interviewed her based on what she told me.
Tom:So that's it.
Tom:That's that's the disclaimer I wanted to give for this one.
Tom:It's really lovely interview.
Tom:Gemma's writing her debut novel.
Tom:And I just felt it was really interesting.
Tom:Someone who's had success, working on their debut.
Tom:How's that going?
Tom:How their writing process.
Tom:So if you write short stories, she's a person worth listening to.
Tom:If you're writing a debut novel, she's a person worth listening to.
Tom:And if you just like reading excellent writing, she's a
Tom:person worth listening to.
Tom:So you're about to listen to her.
Tom:That's all the preamble.
Tom:Here's my chat with Gemma straight after this jingle.
Tom:Hello.
Tom:And this week I'm very pleased to say my guest is G.
Tom:V.
Tom:Anderson.
Tom:Gemma, hello, how are you?
G.V.:Hi Tom, I'm good thanks.
G.V.:How are you?
Tom:I'm very well, thank you.
Tom:And my opening question as I always like to say is, what are we drinking?
G.V.:It's strong tea, no sugar.
G.V.:Very large mug.
Tom:I have gone for the large mug as I am joining you with a, an enormous
Tom:strong tea with milk, no sugar.
Tom:And it's quite late in the evening for me so this might...
Tom:see, see how it affects my sleep, but, uh,
G.V.:Maybe it should have been a decaff tea?
Tom:That's, that's just devil tea.
Tom:That that's all right up there with Earl Grey.
Tom:It's not, it's not eligible as a tea.
Tom:And can you describe where your talking to me from?
Tom:What, where are you at the moment?
G.V.:Yes.
G.V.:I'm in my home office.
G.V.:Sort of second bedroom home office/cat room, which is where I've been working
G.V.:from home for the last two years almost.
G.V.:It's cozy.
G.V.:It's got a desk, it's where the business happens.
G.V.:It's where the laptop is.
Tom:So has this been where you predominantly done your writing?
G.V.:Yeah, I find that I do work better when I'm at a proper desk.
G.V.:Obviously it's a laptop so I can work on my lap if I need to.
G.V.:But posture wise, you know, you're sat still for a long periods of time and it's
G.V.:just not great for your back and your neck and other things so it's better if
G.V.:you can to have a desk with a good chair.
Tom:And for the audience who can't see, you have a gamers chair
Tom:as well, talking about posture.
G.V.:I have like a proper ergonomic thing, with like lumbar pillow support.
Tom:Wow, it's a proper business chair for the long writing sessions.
Tom:And so how long have you had this writing setup?
G.V.:It's only really been since the pandemic, because this
G.V.:room, it used to kind of be a guest bedroom/kind of store room.
G.V.:And it's only in the last six months that we've arranged the furniture
G.V.:in this way in and got me set up.
G.V.:I can work from home all the time.
G.V.:Before the pandemic, I just wrote where I could.
G.V.:Lap on the sofa type situation.
Tom:And do you feel it's improved your writing sessions, are they
Tom:longer, or do you just feel you're more productive when you are writing,
Tom:now you've got a dedicated space?
G.V.:I think I write for about the same amount of time, but I definitely
G.V.:feel like my brain is more switched on.
G.V.:There's something about the the feeling of sitting at a desk that kind of,
G.V.:because I do a nine to five, there's something about sitting at a desk that
G.V.:tells my brain that it's time to work now.
G.V.:So it kind of helps me to switch, you know, from like home brain to work brain.
Tom:Yeah, have that focus.
Tom:Absolutely.
Tom:And when you're coming up with stories initially, is that
Tom:something that can happen anywhere?
Tom:How do ideas generally come to you?
G.V.:I tend to find the walking is something that really makes me
G.V.:start thinking, especially if I have like music playing, and consuming
G.V.:other media, like watching TV, watching films, and reading books.
G.V.:That's tends to be something that if I like a certain aspect, then I'll
G.V.:be like, oh, I'd love to write that, but maybe from that angle, we'll
G.V.:maybe do that slightly differently.
G.V.:And then that sparks an idea on its own.
G.V.:I don't really carry a notebook around on me.
G.V.:I'm one of these people that if it's a good idea, I'll remember it.
Tom:Yeah.
Tom:Actually a guest on season one, Emma Newman, was very much the same.
Tom:She said that if it's a good enough idea, it stays.
Tom:Yeah, I guess it filters out the bad ideas if you, if you're not forced
Tom:to write everything down as it comes.
G.V.:Yeah, because not everything works really.
G.V.:If you get into the habit of writing down everything, it makes you feel too
G.V.:indecisive about what to pick, I think.
G.V.:Whereas, if you were just relying on your memory, yeah, the best stuff just sticks.
G.V.:If it just works.
Tom:Yeah, absolutely.
Tom:And so with your ideas, does it tend to be a scenario or do you like characters?
Tom:Does a character really come to the fore, or maybe just a world or a setting
Tom:that you'd like to base a story in?
G.V.:I think it's any one of them, really.
G.V.:I've written stories where I just came up with a world and
G.V.:the world was interesting.
G.V.:I just made up a story to go in the world.
G.V.:I think it's I just wanted to write about the world.
G.V.:And there's been stories where, you know, I had a particular character that
G.V.:I really wanted to write about cause I thought they were fun or interesting.
G.V.:So then you create a story to go with them.
G.V.:It just varies.
G.V.:It depends on what gets your interest, I suppose.
Tom:And do you find any one easier or harder as a starting point?
Tom:Do you, do you like fleshing out characters more than world-building?
G.V.:I find worlds and stuff like that a lot easier than character.
G.V.:Just because creating good characters is like a lot harder
G.V.:than you give it credit for.
G.V.:To have a good character you, you've basically not got to write yourself,
G.V.:but write enough of yourself that you can make a good character.
G.V.:Do you know what I mean?
G.V.:So you've really got to do some work on characterization, thinking outside
G.V.:the box in terms of motivation and where they're coming from and stuff.
G.V.:It's quite hard.
G.V.:And then if you've got like a novel project, like a novel, you're looking
G.V.:at cast of like maybe a dozen and, and most of them has got to have
G.V.:that kind of level of fleshing out.
G.V.:So I find that quite difficult.
G.V.:I prefer to just work with the world and piece together new languages and religions
G.V.:and cultures and that kind of thing.
G.V.:I like that side of it.
Tom:And do you prefer creating your own religions and cultures,
Tom:or do you like researching existing religions and cultures and
Tom:incorporating elements of those?
G.V.:It depends what I'm writing, but I don't like research.
G.V.:I find it really just difficult, I think.
G.V.:So it's easier for me to just, yeah, I mean, I write fantasy, so there's
G.V.:going to be real, real world influences.
G.V.:That you can come up with something and mix things together.
G.V.:I think that's easier for me than having to go in depth on how how
G.V.:something really works, you know?
Tom:And your working on your first novel.
Tom:Now you've had success with short stories, but you're now
Tom:working on your first novel.
Tom:What was it about the story that you felt this needs to be expanded?
Tom:Did it always feel like a novel, or was it just a short story that ran away
Tom:from you and just like, oh, this is, this is now a hundred thousand words.
G.V.:It's interesting because I've had a years of writing short stories
G.V.:now, and I'm finding that I'm quite good at judging how long a short story
G.V.:is going to be and whether the idea has got legs enough to be a novel.
G.V.:And I can't really define why, but it's just the feeling that you get
G.V.:when you you think of an idea and you think of how many layers it
G.V.:has, you think how many characters you really need to tell the story.
G.V.:And, you know, there's, I can't remember where I read this advice, but it was
G.V.:basically every named character adds a thousand words to a short story.
G.V.:So using that as a rough guide.
G.V.:Um, but then you get some ideas that for some reason you can just see loads
G.V.:and loads of roads that you could go down and loads of things that you
G.V.:could explore and, and the cast gets bigger and bigger to fill that world.
G.V.:And then you think, oh, right, I've got a novel (laughs)
Tom:Yeah.
Tom:So, so this story, I guess then it had a larger number of
Tom:characters than traditionally.
Tom:Is it quite a cast?
G.V.:It is.
G.V.:Yeah, because it's, it's a portal fantasy and the characters traveling
G.V.:round and in the fantasy world and meeting lots of different people
G.V.:in different areas of the world.
G.V.:So every time she goes to a new place, there's someone else and they all
G.V.:kind of have their own factions and feuds with each other and things.
G.V.:So, yeah, it's a big cast and they've all got different motivations to work out.
G.V.:And it gives me a headache (laughs)
Tom:So how long have you been writing this novel for then?
G.V.:So I signed with my agent in 2018, I think.
G.V.:And I was in the early stages at that point.
G.V.:So three years?
G.V.:I don't know.
G.V.:My math's not great, but yeah, so awhile.
G.V.:The last two years have felt very strange, so I don't know if they count.
Tom:Yeah.
Tom:They can be one.
Tom:That's fine.
Tom:Yeah.
Tom:It's 2022 now, but it's just, we're still coming to terms with the fact it's 2022.
Tom:Some people were still thinking it was 2021.
Tom:Yeah.
Tom:Well, some people think it's still 2020.
Tom:So...
G.V.:I'm thinking of things that happening in 2022 and I'm
G.V.:still saying next year, so yeah.
Tom:No, absolutely.
Tom:So it will be the fourth year at some point in the next few months.
G.V.:Yeah.
G.V.:I think it's, this is the fifth draft now that I'm working on.
G.V.:But I'm hoping it's the last draft, it's the last clean pass that I'm doing
G.V.:and I'm, I'm putting in, I mean, for example, if I'm drafting and there's a
G.V.:bit of information or character's name or something, and I can't think at that
G.V.:point, what I need to put in there, I'll just put, place holder in brackets.
G.V.:Or I'll say, "write cool scene here" or something.
G.V.:Um, so this draft is for me to basically collate all of the drafts into one true
G.V.:draft and fill in those place holders and make it all nice and neat and tidy.
Tom:Okay.
Tom:Nice.
Tom:Is it just a couple of placeholders left or are you just looking at your
Tom:past self and saying, god dammit, Gemma!
Tom:stop it with all the placeholders?
G.V.:Yeah.
G.V.:There are a few points where I've in a previous draft and I've just left a note
G.V.:to myself saying, oh, work this out later.
G.V.:This person's angry.
G.V.:Why?
Tom:They find a way to escape.
G.V.:Yeah, they, they managed to pull off the heist.
G.V.:Oh, my God, my cats come in.
Tom:Okay.
Tom:We're having a cameo from Toebean for the audience.
G.V.:Yeah.
G.V.:I did actually close the door, but he has worked out how to
G.V.:open the doors apparently.
Tom:Okay, he's like a raptor.
G.V.:Yes.
G.V.:So he's going to be sort of circling, so, okay.
G.V.:But sorry, what was the question?
G.V.:I feel like I lost my thread a little bit when I heard the door.
Tom:Well, actually I think that's the perfect time to ask the question.
Tom:How do you deal with distractions?
G.V.:Not well (laughs)
Tom:Um, and having cats, has there been times when you've been in the
Tom:middle of a writing session where you're really in the zone and then
Tom:the cat comes in or something and you're like, what was I writing?
G.V.:No, I have to say, I think when I'm in the zone, I can usually see
G.V.:the next couple of steps ahead of me.
G.V.:So even if I get distracted, and I am easily distracted, I will be able to come
G.V.:back to it and think what the next steps were and I can pick it up from there.
G.V.:And I am quite good as well at when I'm drafting.
G.V.:I will usually be scribbling at the bottom of the page, scribbling typing at the
G.V.:bottom of the page what's coming next.
G.V.:Um, especially if I need to sign off very quickly, deal with
G.V.:something, I'll usually just tap in.
G.V.:I was going to write this next and then I can run off.
G.V.:And when I come back to it I can, I can come back to a very garbled strange note.
Tom:Okay.
Tom:You know, that actually links us back to what we were talking about
Tom:before Toebean came in, uh, which was placeholders and that you're coming into
Tom:the one true draft to rule them all.
Tom:Um, And I want to sort of go back on what you were saying a little
Tom:earlier about how you hate research.
Tom:One of the reasons why you write fantasy, but with this portal novel,
Tom:uh, so portal based sort of fantasy, is that between two fantasy worlds or
Tom:is that between reality and fantasy?
Tom:I would say, this is a leading question for the audience.
Tom:I already know the answer, but I just want Gemma to admit it.
G.V.:Very well done.
G.V.:( laughs)
G.V.:So, it's historical fantasy and we're jumping from 1940s blitz into a magical
G.V.:world that is where the magic comes from.
G.V.:The town that it's about, or city.
G.V.:Neverwhere set during the blitz, basically.
G.V.:How I'm pitching it.
G.V.:Yeah.
Tom:Yes.
Tom:And Neverwhere being one of my favorite Neil Gaiman and Neil Gaiman's debut novel.
Tom:So as a debut novelist...
Tom:ballsy, I like it.
G.V.:Yeah.
G.V.:Yeah, I know.
G.V.:They never say in comps, like trying to tease massive books and a massive
G.V.:successes because, you know, they don't do it, but I'm like, yeah well.
Tom:I mean, yeah, I mean, Neil was quite lazy in setting his contemporary London.
Tom:You've gone historical, steal from highly successful people and then make it more
Tom:difficult for yourself, especially in an area that you hate, which is research.
G.V.:Well, at least it's researching time that is not too long ago.
G.V.:You know, the resources are available there and not having
G.V.:to go to primary sources.
G.V.:But yeah, it has been an absolute pain, if I'm honest.
Tom:So what, I mean, unless it's a plot spoiler is there, you know, what
Tom:compelled you to write about the blitz?
G.V.:It's not really a spoiler.
G.V.:It's just, it's a part of history that I find really interesting.
G.V.:And particularly the city that I'm writing about, I'm not writing by
G.V.:London, because when I started to think portal fantasy kind of Neverwhere
G.V.:based London is the obvious one.
G.V.:But then you've got so many amazing books already that are kind of about
G.V.:all the secret worlds of London.
G.V.:But there's so many other cities and areas of England that got
G.V.:really badly affected in the blitz and targeted for certain reasons.
G.V.:So there's stories there that I could tell.
G.V.:So it wasn't anything particular that I, about why I chose the blitz.
Tom:Okay, can we discuss the location?
Tom:I must confess, I feel it's Coventry because there's, that's quite famous
Tom:in the blitz, but I, I don't know.
G.V.:It is famous, but it is not Coventry.
G.V.:Um, it's Southampton.
Tom:Okay.
Tom:Oooh.
G.V.:Yeah.
G.V.:Yes.
G.V.:Which is where the spitfires were built.
G.V.:It's where the factory was, where they were building Spitfires.
G.V.:So it was a massive target.
Tom:Yeah.
Tom:And on the south coast as well, it definitely would have been.
G.V.:Yep.
G.V.:So anytime they hit Portsmouth, anytime they flew over to get Bristol,
G.V.:they, they hit Southampton on the way, so it suffered quite badly.
G.V.:And it's very local to me, so that felt quite nice.
Tom:Yeah.
Tom:So somewhere you could actually walk the streets and although a lot of it's changed
Tom:since then, you can still, the street layouts probably not changed too much.
Tom:Um...
G.V.:No, the street layouts uh, it's been really, you know, an interesting
G.V.:experience doing the research actually.
G.V.:Cause I found some really good, um, The ordinance maps and things, that
G.V.:show all of the old road layouts and, and you know, what was there and what
G.V.:schools were there and things like that.
G.V.:And it's really fascinating actually to see what changed and what got
G.V.:obliterated because of the blitz.
Tom:And although you hate research, what was the most interesting, or what
Tom:was the most vital sort of uh, resource?
Tom:Uh, I'm guessing it wasn't Wikipedia.
G.V.:Well, Wikipedia's always a good place to start.
G.V.:Um, but no, I was really lucky with what I stumbled upon.
G.V.:The thing with research that I find irritating is that it's complete luck.
G.V.:Whether, you know, you stumbled upon the right information that you need.
G.V.:The information could be out there.
G.V.:You just, if you're bad at it, like I am, you'll just never find it.
G.V.:And then you'll get loads readers saying, well, you didn't know blah blah blah.
G.V.:And you're like, oh no!
G.V.:Give me more to look.
G.V.:Um, but no.
G.V.:There was a really good resource that I found that because
G.V.:it's set during in The Blitz.
G.V.:I'm having to kind of match up what's happening in the novel
G.V.:with when actual bombs fell and when actual areas were happening.
G.V.:And, and I found it an amazing thing, digitized diary of a man who was
G.V.:living in Southampton at the time.
G.V.:And he noted the dates, but also the times of the air raid sirens going
G.V.:off, and then the all clear sounding.
G.V.:You know, you've got a record of like, on this day, there was an air raid that
G.V.:starts just six o'clock in the evening.
G.V.:The all-clear went at two in the morning and these are
G.V.:where the planes were sighted.
G.V.:So you know exactly where they were and where they were hitting.
G.V.:Um, I'm not sticking to it like perfectly.
G.V.:Because I need to serve the story at the end of the day.
G.V.:I can't, you know, I'm not writing nonfiction, but it's an amazing, amazingly
G.V.:helpful piece of information to have like my characters in this place at a certain
G.V.:time, I can instantly be like, yes.
G.V.:Okay.
G.V.:That works in the story, an air raid did actually happen at that time.
G.V.:Um, and it's just, it's another way of kind of adding flavor and, and..
Tom:Yeah, absolutely.
Tom:And I think anyone who has a strong tie to Southampton at that time.
Tom:And maybe remember, or has like family history of certain things happening in
Tom:their family at that time to be able to sort of, uh, see that reference.
Tom:Yeah, like you said, it's like the flavor is that really the adding that extra
Tom:layer, um, just really helped sells it.
G.V.:I think you can always tell if someone's, if there's a writer
G.V.:that's writing about a city or a town.
G.V.:You can usually, if you're familiar with the city in town, you can usually tell
G.V.:whether or not the author is as well.
G.V.:At least this way, it will kind of seem like I know what I'm talking about.
Tom:Yeah.
Tom:The geography, the terminology, I guess, sort of, some local
Tom:dialects slang as well.
Tom:I think if it's, a region of which you live close to, absolutely.
Tom:And so with having to do a fair amount of research, which you loved,
Tom:and a larger cast than the short stories that you're, you're known for.
Tom:How has this affected your note-taking?
Tom:I'm assuming it's evolved from some of the short stories you've written.
Tom:And has it made you more organized and is it all carefully filed
Tom:away or is it just a room of chaos?
Tom:It's just notes everywhere..
G.V.:Yeah.
G.V.:My note taking is erratic.
G.V.:Um, I've already said that if an idea is good, I'll remember it.
G.V.:So that kind of gives you the idea of about half of my note taking, um, style.
G.V.:It's in my head.
G.V.:Otherwise it's on post-it and those post-its can be hidden anywhere from
G.V.:inside my diary, to being used as a bookmark, and then kind of towards the
G.V.:end of the project, I'll start collating all the post-its, and, you know, 80% of
G.V.:them wouldn't really be relevant anymore.
G.V.:But yeah, I found that the fact that a novel is so much more
G.V.:complex and much longer than a short story, hasn't really made me
G.V.:any better at planning or anything.
G.V.:So..
Tom:Did you craft an outline for the novel, and was that like beat for beat?
Tom:Or was that more of just, this is first act, this is second, this is third.
Tom:Or is it a chapter by chapter?
Tom:I mean, how broken down was your outline?
Tom:How detailed was it?
G.V.:Um, my outline, I do plan, you know, saying that, that my
G.V.:note-taking and planning is mad.
G.V.:But I do plan and I do like an outline.
G.V.:I like to know the ending before I start.
G.V.:So my outline was kind of, I settled on a, a three act structure and then
G.V.:that gave me an idea of oh, at this point that needs to be a pinch point
G.V.:or that needs to be, uh, you know, some sort of interesting twists.
G.V.:And then that leads you into the next act.
G.V.:I didn't go so far as breaking it down chapter by chapter, but I think there are
G.V.:certain scenes they come to you fast and that you're particularly excited to write.
G.V.:Um, and it's kind of, you know, you, you think about your, your
G.V.:structure, your three-act structure.
G.V.:You know that there's a scene with that character and that character,
G.V.:and they talk about this, that you really want to write anything that
G.V.:will probably be best in the first act.
G.V.:And then there's another one that you think leads to the second act.
G.V.:It doesn't always work.
G.V.:Um, but yeah, I do like to have kind of a rough idea of this scene's going
G.V.:to go to that scene because of this.
G.V.:And, and that takes me to the end.
G.V.:But it changes as I, as I go.
G.V.:It's a detailed outline, but I have to say the outline that I wrote four years ago
G.V.:is very different to what I'm writing now.
Tom:So do you find once you've written a detailed outline that you
Tom:write the story chronologically?
Tom:Or when there's a scene that you're excited to write, you might write that in
Tom:advance and then it's like joining it up.
Tom:Do you write scenes out of sequence or do you write it beginning to
Tom:end once you've done the outline?
G.V.:I have to write beginning to end, I can't write out of order.
G.V.:Because I find it really difficult to get a handle on the character's
G.V.:motivations and what they would say, why they would say that without
G.V.:the context of what came before.
G.V.:And you know, the times I have tried to do a scene out of order, by the
G.V.:time I come to that scene in the book, what's been established as their
G.V.:behavior and this, that, and the other that they then wouldn't say what I've
G.V.:written and they wouldn't act that way.
G.V.:Then it kind of gets started in the bin anyway.
G.V.:But yeah, now I have to write chronologically, in the order
G.V.:that appears in the book.
G.V.:Because then it feels like I get that momentum.
G.V.:It feels like reading at the same time and I get a better feeling for pace.
G.V.:Um, and like, I know if you're writing it out of order you don't really get a
G.V.:sense that like I'm spending too long on this or that moves too quickly.
G.V.:Whereas I do, if I write in order.
Tom:Yeah.
Tom:And where you saying before about how the outline that you wrote four years
Tom:ago versus the fifth draft that you're working on now is very different.
Tom:Do you find that a reason for the change has been the characters motivations
Tom:and the things have happened to them throughout the scenes that you've
Tom:written, or has it just been better ideas have come to you and you go,
Tom:oh, actually I can do that better.
Tom:And you just rewrite it that way?
G.V.:Yeah.
G.V.:That's definitely the second one that, you know, as you're writing,
G.V.:you realize that you've two characters where actually, you could just have
G.V.:one and they do both do the same job.
G.V.:Or, you originally envisioned a character to act a certain way, but then you realize
G.V.:that's too boring and so you switch it up.
G.V.:But then that has a knock on effect on other things.
G.V.:So, Yeah, my cat just meowed and that distracted me.
Tom:Toebean just calling out then.
Tom:That's fine.
Tom:And once you've got your outline and your writing in a sequence,
Tom:do you find it quite easy to sit down and churn out the words?
Tom:Some people love the form of writing.
Tom:Some people find it entire chore, but once you've got that all mapped
Tom:out, is it fairly free flowing?
Tom:Is it quite easy to get the words on the page?
G.V.:It depends what I'm writing.
G.V.:It obviously it all helps that you know where you're going.
G.V.:And it's like, it's very easy for the outline to say, as I
G.V.:mentioned, this isn't in my novel, but like a heist, for example.
G.V.:The outline says, like they rob a bank and then you actually sit down and come to it
G.V.:and you're like, how do you rob a bank?
G.V.:You know?
G.V.:And you just hit all these snags and then bumps that you don't really need
G.V.:to go into detail with when you're outlining or you're planning and
G.V.:getting excited about the scenes.
G.V.:And then you actually get to them and you think, I've actually got to make this
G.V.:fun to read and, you know, the characters have got to stay in character and,
G.V.:(noise of cat crashing into something)
G.V.:Sorry he just jumped.
Tom:That was definitely a clatter of a falling cat.
Tom:He lives, he lives everyone.
G.V.:He ran out.
G.V.:He's okay.
Tom:He's gone.
Tom:He's just made a mess.
G.V.:He made a mess and ran.
Tom:Okay.
Tom:Okay.
Tom:So when you've got those, yeah, we're taking the example of a bank
Tom:robbery, and you go, I have no idea.
Tom:How do you get through the, I guess inspiration struggle of not knowing?
Tom:Is it just turning up, just writing a few words and then sort of seeing
Tom:how it comes back the next day, or is it going for a long walk and going, I
Tom:need to fix this problem in a general way before I can put the words down.
Tom:Because some people will just slowly type and others will just, I need
Tom:to reflect and then come back to it.
G.V.:It's, it's a mixture.
G.V.:I mean, getting away, stepping away from it and working it through your
G.V.:subconscious always really helps.
G.V.:But sometimes you just got to brute force it and sometimes you just gotta write
G.V.:a scene that you know is really bad.
G.V.:And you know is really illogical, it doesn't really work.
G.V.:And you know, maybe then after you finish that scene, maybe you write
G.V.:the scene again from memory, but like maybe putting a new twist on it.
G.V.:And then if you do enough iterations of that, when you come back to edited
G.V.:it, one of those will ring true or, you know, will, will feel right.
G.V.:And that you've continued on in that vein for, you know, a bit afterwards.
G.V.:Cause I said, I don't like writing out of order, so for me to get
G.V.:stuck on a bit, I can't jump it.
G.V.:I can't jump it and pick up later.
G.V.:I have to just kind of brute force my way through it, which is just frustrating.
Tom:Do you try and impose any sort of targets on your writing sessions?
Tom:Do you have like a minimum word count or like a minimum time to sort of sit
Tom:through a session, like, you know, sort of number of hours per day or per week?
G.V.:I mean, I try to have goals and I think by the end of this week, I would
G.V.:like to, I don't really think in terms of words, but I think in terms of, I'd
G.V.:like to get to this part of the story.
G.V.:Like, you know, if I know that I've got the next four scenes
G.V.:mapped out quite, quite well.
G.V.:If I say by the end of this week, I'd like to have those four scenes done.
G.V.:But yeah, I work full-time, so I've just gotta take the time where I can.
G.V.:So writing every day, definitely isn't really an option for me.
G.V.:And you know, just take time where you find it really.
G.V.:And sometimes, you know, you have a really good day and you write 2000 words and
G.V.:sometimes you can really just manage 50.
G.V.:And you've just got to find a way to be happy with either, because
G.V.:even, you know, even 50 words, you learn something from it.
G.V.:Even if it's just we learned the fact that you're stubborn.
G.V.:That's valuable.
Tom:Well, I think people associate word count targets so commonly.
Tom:So if, for someone who doesn't sort of have them stringently
Tom:when writing the novel.
Tom:I was just wondering, is it something you've tried in the past and it
Tom:just didn't work for you or you felt guilty cause you weren't hitting
Tom:them or has it just been something that intrinsically you knew just
Tom:didn't work with your writing style?
G.V.:I have sort of tried it in the past, I've done NaNoWriMo, which is where you
G.V.:gotta do 50,000 words in a month, which I think is like 1,600 and something words
G.V.:a day that you need to do to hit it.
G.V.:And I, I'm a bit of a binge writer, I go for periods where
G.V.:I don't write an awful lot.
G.V.:I'm kind of reading more and that kind of thing.
G.V.:And then I get a few weeks where I'm writing 5,000 words a week,
G.V.:which is quite a lot for me.
G.V.:So I found that, I felt easier to measure it in other ways.
G.V.:Because measuring it in words, especially with something like
G.V.:writing where words are constantly getting deleted and rewritten.
G.V.:It felt like, you know, a really arbitrary measure of how well you're doing and
G.V.:whether the story was good, you know.
G.V.:Because you can write as much as you like, but if if it's bad, then you know, that's
G.V.:kind of a waste of your time as well.
Tom:Yeah.
Tom:I guess when coming from short stories, it's never really an issue.
Tom:It's all about just getting the story crafted to the best that it can be told.
Tom:And not really worrying about volume because often you'll voice
Tom:into a strict word limit anyway.
Tom:So did you feel that the writing style that you developed through
Tom:short stories really benefited when it came to writing a novel?
G.V.:Yeah, in some ways, but I think a novel is such a different beast.
G.V.:Because I think with short stories you really train yourself to
G.V.:be succinct and you know that you've only got so many words.
G.V.:If you want to talk about the business side of it, you know if
G.V.:you want to sell it, then it's got to be less than X amount of words.
G.V.:And it's easier to sell a short story as the longer the stories get
G.V.:the less markets there are that's going to spot those kinds of stories.
G.V.:So, you know, you really learn to, to pair it down and then you
G.V.:get on to a novel where, you know, you have a hundred thousand or
G.V.:more words to really let it out.
G.V.:And you realize there's been times when I've been writing my novel and I've
G.V.:realized that I, I'm writing really sparkly and I like really coming in
G.V.:under the words that would be right for that chapter length, you know?
G.V.:You forget you've got the space to work with when you switch.
Tom:It's not trying to write it in the most succinct way.
Tom:If you, if you want to spend two or three lines, two or three sentences
Tom:to describe something you can.
Tom:Now that you've got your own dedicated space and you're writing your first novel.
Tom:Have you discovered you have any particular writing rituals?
Tom:Do you have like a certain time of day that you find the best to write?
Tom:Do you have to be in like certain comfy clothings?
Tom:Is there like a lucky totem that you have on your desk?
Tom:Or do you write in silence?
Tom:Do you write with music?
Tom:That's sort of evocative of the scene to try and write.
Tom:Have you noticed any rituals that you've developed whilst writing the novel?
G.V.:So there are certain things that I know are better than others.
G.V.:One of them is that I get dressed as if I'm working.
G.V.:I can't write in my pajamas as much as I would love to.
G.V.:I know that a lot's been made of like working from home and writers sitting
G.V.:around in their pajamas writing.
G.V.:I can't do it.
G.V.:Um, it's that other thing that I've gotta do to my brain to
G.V.:make it switch into work mode.
G.V.:Another thing is I have to have silence.
G.V.:I can't have music, not even instrumental music.
G.V.:I've tried to write with those, you know, there's ambient music or like, if you say
G.V.:like, you know, cafe background noise, you know, but eventually, you know, those
G.V.:things have got a loop and if you listen to it long enough, you start to hear the
G.V.:same sound of the cup hitting the counter and it's like, yeah, I've got to have, you
G.V.:know, it's as close to silence as I can.
G.V.:Um, I've got to be kind of washed and dressed and, and as if I'm going to work.
G.V.:It's I wouldn't say that I need it.
G.V.:I do like to make a cup of tea.
G.V.:Because I like the ritual of it, it kind of signposts to my brain to say like,
G.V.:you know, you gonna go and write now.
G.V.:Apart from that, I don't really have any kind of like fluffy totems.
G.V.:I usually just have a notebook and a pen open.
G.V.:I don't often use it, but again, it feels like the trappings of the writer.
G.V.:If that makes sense?
G.V.:I've got my tea.
G.V.:I've got my notebook and that kind of puts me in the mindset.
Tom:Yeah.
Tom:Well, that's cool.
Tom:And, with your writing sessions, I was just thinking, cause like with the ritual
Tom:of a cup of tea, is that, do you have like one tea per session or is it a cup
Tom:of tea a good sort of time for a break?
Tom:And is there any indicators that sort of mark the times to have a
Tom:break or to finish a writing session?
G.V.:Yeah, I do kind of hit a bit of a wall.
G.V.:I think two hours is my optimum amount of time that I can spend
G.V.:writing before I need to step away.
G.V.:And that usually translates to about a thousand words.
G.V.:So yeah, two hours, thousand words.
G.V.:But you know, whichever one I hit first I've started to notice that
G.V.:that's then my brain kind of stops working properly and it needs to
G.V.:go away and, and have some fun.
G.V.:Um, which is really, you know, I wish I'd sit for eight hours a day and
G.V.:do it as a, almost a day job hours.
G.V.:But, you know, there are authors who make it work, like RJ Barker very
G.V.:famously just does a thousand words a day and he does very well with that.
Tom:Yes he does.
Tom:He does indeed.
Tom:And there's the old adage that writing is rewriting.
Tom:But how do you rewrite your work?
Tom:Do you write complete drafts or do you find yourself reworking individual scenes?
Tom:And second to that, how do you know when to stop rewriting and when do
Tom:you go it's best to leave it now?
G.V.:I will say that one author that I'm absolutely terrified of because of
G.V.:how she edits is Sarah Moss and she'll write an entire novel draft and she
G.V.:will print it and then she will burn it.
G.V.:She will literally burn it and she will delete it and then she will
G.V.:have to rewrite it again from memory.
G.V.:And it's like that thing of, if it's good it sticks.
G.V.:So that terrifies me (laughs).
G.V.:But yeah, I do kind of like to start fresh.
G.V.:I write in Microsoft word, I don't use Scrivener or anything like that.
G.V.:But I always do, you know, the first page has always got the title, the next one
G.V.:has got the placeholder for a dedication.
G.V.:The next one has an epitaph.
G.V.:And I really liked to structure the word document as if it's a book.
G.V.:So yeah, if I'm getting into a new draft that is a really nice
G.V.:refresher, like a pallet cleanser.
G.V.:It feels like it's starting a brand new book and, and everything else
G.V.:has forgiven what's gone before.
G.V.:But yeah, it depends on what's needed really.
G.V.:Sometimes you do need to completely write from scratch, if you're editing.
G.V.:If you know that nothing you did worked, you just need to go back
G.V.:to the drafting mode basically.
G.V.:Otherwise it's like I was working on this today.
G.V.:I was editing a little bit today and it's kind of been a copy
G.V.:and paste sort of situation.
G.V.:Like I had the two drafts and put them side by side.
G.V.:And you know, you read ahead on the old draft and think,
G.V.:yes, I want to keep that bit.
G.V.:I don't want to keep that bit.
G.V.:But that bit I do wanna keep it doesn't go there, it needs to go somewhere else.
G.V.:And then, so you're basically kind of patching something together and then
G.V.:copying it over to the new draft.
G.V.:I don't know if that's weird or not.
Tom:No, no.
Tom:I mean, that's the whole point.
Tom:I don't think any two writers write the same way and everyone's got
Tom:their own methods that work for them.
Tom:I certainly have heard of people having two drafts open before.
Tom:And you've sort of said how you on your fifth draft now, and
Tom:you've had sort of four drafts.
Tom:So is it that you've gone through draft one, then draft
Tom:two with draft one next to it.
Tom:And then draft three is a redoing draft two and that's how you've gone through.
Tom:And you said as well about placeholders, have there been certain scenes that
Tom:it's just been a placeholder from one to two to three to four, and now
Tom:you're dealing with it with five.
Tom:Are they in, are there some that you've managed to move around, or are
Tom:there some that are quite stubborn?
G.V.:There's no particular scenes I can think of because, you know, by the
G.V.:time I got to the third draft, if I was still doing a place holder for a
G.V.:certain scene or bit, I just be like, well, I can think of it (laughs).
G.V.:It's not working.
G.V.:But yeah, I mean, I got a couple of the drafts, the early drafts,
G.V.:they were complete rewrite.
G.V.:It's the last two drafts that have been that side by side page on.
G.V.:But yeah, you were saying like, how do you know when to stop rewriting?
G.V.:And it's been really difficult with this one because, like when I did the first
G.V.:draft, I started it with a point of view.
G.V.:I was using omniscient and, I just found that I'd bitten off more than
G.V.:I could chew and I didn't quite know what to do with that second draft.
G.V.:I was like, okay, I'm more familiar with first person I've done all right
G.V.:with that in my short fiction, I will do first person, but the first person is
G.V.:so limiting because then you're only in the viewpoint of one character, unless
G.V.:you jump around for certain reasons.
G.V.:If you've chosen first person then there's no real reason why you should do that.
G.V.:So, you know, for the next draft, I was like, right, I've got to go omniscient.
G.V.:So, the thing of like, how do you need me to stop rewriting.
G.V.:You don't really, because you're, you're always second guessing yourself.
G.V.:And that's the most frustrating thing is you're always thinking,
G.V.:maybe what I did before was better and I've actually made it worse.
G.V.:So I should go back and do it again.
G.V.:And, you know, you do kind of catch self on a bit of a loop of that.
G.V.:How'd you know when to stop rewriting?
G.V.:You don't want to look at it anymore.
G.V.:You're sick of your own story.
G.V.:That you're just like, yeah, I think this is fine, this is readable.
G.V.:I think if you can read through it and be okay about it, then that's fine.
Tom:And once you've got the s tory the best in isolation that you can,
Tom:do you have any beta readers that you use and rely on for feedback before
Tom:it goes to an agent or editors?
Tom:And if so, because I can see you're nodding for the listeners she's nodding.
Tom:Um, And how did those relationships develop?
Tom:To you, what's being a good beta reader?
G.V.:Um, yes.
G.V.:So I have met some really amazing people, made some really good friends
G.V.:through my writing groups, which have been livejournal, all the way back
G.V.:in Livejournal days, Squarefile and codex, which I part of at the moment.
G.V.:And through those, you just have naturally make friends and gravitate
G.V.:towards people that you get on with and like the same kind of books
G.V.:and styles of writing that you do.
G.V.:I've been really lucky to have found a couple of people who have had some
G.V.:incredible feedback for my short stories.
G.V.:To the point where their feedback has literally been what's got them published
G.V.:or, it's just helpful to have that kind of other perspective, I suppose.
G.V.:But it's important for me not to have more than three beta readers on one
G.V.:story because I find that more than three, you're actually starting to
G.V.:trying to please the readers, you know, you end up splitting yourself and
G.V.:trying to make everyone happy rather than listening to the feedback and, and
G.V.:sorting out what, what works for you.
Tom:And the three that you use, are they all published writers?
Tom:Do you find it good to have people who can relate to doing the
Tom:work and have their own success?
G.V.:There's kind of benefits from having people over the
G.V.:publishing spectrum, if I'm honest.
G.V.:It's really useful to have someone who isn't a writer and can just
G.V.:read it as a book, because I think if you're a writer yourself,
G.V.:you're constantly in writing mode.
G.V.:When you're reading, you're constantly looking out for craft, you're looking
G.V.:at techniques and things like this, and that's useful to know that those
G.V.:techniques are working and stuff.
G.V.:But sometimes you don't want someone who's aware of those to
G.V.:tell you, if it's fun or not.
G.V.:You know, you just want to know if it's a fun read.
G.V.:And on another level, it's really good to have somebody who has
G.V.:published a book before or more books.
G.V.:And can kind of look at it from the business side of it.
G.V.:Almost can give you some pointers of, is this on brand, where
G.V.:would it sit on the shelf?
G.V.:What are the comps?
G.V.:Which is the comps are what you need to pitch to say it's this meet this.
G.V.:Someone in the industry.
Tom:The comparisons, yeah.
G.V.:Yes.
G.V.:Yeah.
G.V.:So thank you.
G.V.:That's what that was.
G.V.:So someone who's been through the whole process before is going to be better
G.V.:placed to give you that style of feedback on something of someone who is in the
G.V.:same boat as you, and is where you are, you know, maybe have had an older novel.
Tom:Yeah.
Tom:And just going to wrap up with two questions at the end.
Tom:It's my belief that writers continue to grow and develop their writing
Tom:with each story that they write.
Tom:From all the short stories that you've written, how did they lean into
Tom:what you're applying to your novel.
Tom:Is there techniques from when you were unpublished to being published
Tom:and award-winning published, that has helped you transition
Tom:from short story to, to novelist?
G.V.:I think there's been certain things for short stories.
G.V.:Because short stories, they tend to cover a small period of time,
G.V.:like a certain event or, or day.
G.V.:But there was a short story I wrote called Water Birds, which
G.V.:takes place over 20 years.
G.V.:So trying to find a way to move the story along at that pace where it didn't
G.V.:feel like you were rushing through.
G.V.:I found that quite valuable in writing a novel, which takes place
G.V.:over a larger period of time.
G.V.:Because finding the way to transition between certain scenes, especially
G.V.:if those scenes are months apart or weeks apart, it can feel really
G.V.:obvious if you say a few weeks later, (laughs), but yeah, every story kind
G.V.:of teaches you something different.
G.V.:And not necessarily about writing either.
G.V.:It just teaches you something a bit different about yourself, about how
G.V.:you like to work and, and what you like your voice to sound like, I suppose.
Tom:Do you feel that you've learned anything specific that
Tom:you can think of with what you've written of the novel so far?
G.V.:No, nothing specific.
G.V.:It's just, I don't know.
G.V.:It's just general.
Tom:Wait until its finished, yeah?
G.V.:Yeah, yeah.
Tom:We'll get that on the next time, when you're back.
Tom:Is there one piece of advice you find yourself returning to when you're writing?
Tom:Is there one thing that you've either read or got told that really
Tom:resonates, that informs your writing?
G.V.:The main one is to read, to be honest.
G.V.:A lot of the time when you say to authors, what's good advice, a lot
G.V.:of them say just to read a lot widely in your genre and outside of it.
G.V.:To learn what you like, to learn what you don't like and why.
G.V.:And just to expose yourself to different subjects and voices and
G.V.:viewpoints and things like that.
G.V.:So yeah, reading.
G.V.:I try to make sure I read.
G.V.:Probably not as much as some people, but I read as much as I can.
G.V.:But you know, there's been so many bits of advice over the years.
G.V.:A lot of them are very similar to things like don't worry too much about the rules.
G.V.:Because when you start out, you're very keen on rules.
G.V.:You're very keen on, no head hopping.
G.V.:Uh, head topping for listeners.
G.V.:is where you jump from one characters had to another mid scene or whatever.
G.V.:You just pick up on all these like bad no-nos that you can't do very early on.
G.V.:And it was really valuable for me to be told, like, don't worry about that.
G.V.:If you head hop, who cares, like everyone's read a book where
G.V.:you head hop and it's fine.
G.V.:As long as it's a good read, it's fine.
Tom:No, absolutely.
Tom:I mean, third-party omniscient, I always think of the Chronicles of
Tom:Narnia has a fine example of that.
Tom:And yeah, it's not very fashionable to write like that, but yeah,
Tom:you know, it can be done.
Tom:It can be done to great success.
Tom:It's just, it's not what's really happening in the 2020s at the moment.
Tom:But it just needs someone to come and write an incredible piece and something
Tom:with a whole host of characters that's so well researched, so well paced, and has a
Tom:thrilling bank heist suddenly added in at the last minute for no particular reason.
G.V.:I'm just going to make it so that there's some jewels hidden to
G.V.:steal, for some reason (laughs).
Tom:I can't wait to read it.
Tom:Obviously, we're with the way that traditional publishing
Tom:works, a few years away from it.
Tom:But, there's always your short stories to read, which are always a joy.
Tom:But Gemma, I just want to say thank you so much for being my guest this week
Tom:and thank you very much for being on.
G.V.:Thank you so much for having me, Tom.
G.V.:Been great.
Tom:And that was the real writing process of G.
Tom:V.
Tom:Anderson.
Tom:Now, did I convince any of you that I always think of the Chronicles
Tom:of Narnia as an example of third party omniscient narrator?
Tom:Because I was blatantly talking out my ass with that.
Tom:It was something I'd looked up between the non-recorded first interview and
Tom:the second interview to sound clever.
Tom:I think I delivered it pretty well.
Tom:But I haven't read the Chronicles of Narnia since I was eight.
Tom:I know that there's Turkish Delight and Father Christmas turns up for some reason.
Tom:That's it.
Tom:You know, so, that's all bollocks but convincing bollocks.
Tom:I just, yeah, I was proud of my bollocks.
Tom:So there you go.
Tom:Anyway, Gemma's great.
Tom:Read her stuff.
Tom:Since we've recorded the interview, I have checked up on Gemma's progress.
Tom:And she still hasn't finished the novel, but she has bought a second cat.
Tom:So, if any of you are worried about procrastinating, don't worry about it.
Tom:You're fine.
Tom:Now, Gemma does keep a good list of all of her published work on her website.
Tom:Some of it you can read online, some are in collections, and there are links to
Tom:where you can buy or download her stories.
Tom:She's definitely someone who wants to read and I'll put the link
Tom:of that page in the show notes.
Tom:This week's.
Tom:Thank you.
Tom:Is to Pete Sutton, contributing editor of far horizons magazine,
Tom:and a fine writer himself.
Tom:He had subscribed to the show, not just a one-off payment.
Tom:So thank you very much.
Tom:Could his financial support lead to a guest spot interview?
Tom:Let's hope so.
Tom:If I can get the rumor out that I'm open to bribes that that could really help me.
Tom:Uh, no, seriously, he's a great guy.
Tom:I've known him for years.
Tom:I'm genuinely trying to get him on the show.
Tom:So fingers crossed we can sort that out.
Tom:And it's just really nice that he's also supporting me, so thank you, Pete.
Tom:That's it.
Tom:Next week's guest also has a bit of a fun story attached to it,
Tom:but I'll leave that for next week.
Tom:And the interview is great.
Tom:There's wine and buffoonery.
Tom:Oh, and the music started.
Tom:I don't know why I started that early.
Tom:I edit my own show, but thanks all for listening, but you always keep writing.
